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Author Topic: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?  (Read 12761 times)

Fred Dorado

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2015, 07:05:39 pm »

So what you are saying is that this is a personnel issue and has nothing to do with the shape of the stage or the fact that is was designed to help a choir project sound into the congregation.

Cool, thanks.


Otherwise, try and reverse the trend of seeking technical $olution$ for personnel problems.
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Fred Dorado

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2015, 07:11:39 pm »

I have a couple of drummers... one of them is a little loud, but that is because he is fairly new and still learning. the other has no problem with volume. There are also certain freq that seem to be more of a problem than others..... the ride cymbal is very annoying.

I will talk to some of them about going to headphones, but some have done it before and would prefer not to again.

Electric guitar is a bit of a bigger issue, because even when he turns it down low, it tends to carry..... I think that has a lot to do with placement, so I will try and move it and see if it helps.

We have been talking about the drum shield, maybe half height, but I was worried about the back wall and the corner it's in being more of an issue that the direct sound.

I think there's lots of good advice here.

Some of my thoughts:
1. Is the drum too loud? For my small church this has always been the culprit, and like someone said, having the drummer restrain him/herself is the best way: lighter sticks (7A, maple) or even thunder rods can help.
2. In ear monitor at least for some? The keyboardist may not mind using headphones fed from a monitor mix bus & headphone amp.
3. Individual monitor mixes is a good thing but do you have enough busses to have individual mixes for everyone? If not, the monitor can simply feed "me" for each musician. A DI box, if you already use one, can easily split the feed into a powered monitor.
4. Drum shield with acoustic panels behind the drum.

For starters I would not go the acoustic panel route just yet, instead try to tame the beast from its source.
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Jamin Lynch

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2015, 07:27:18 pm »

I have a couple of drummers... one of them is a little loud, but that is because he is fairly new and still learning. the other has no problem with volume. There are also certain freq that seem to be more of a problem than others..... the ride cymbal is very annoying.

I will talk to some of them about going to headphones, but some have done it before and would prefer not to again.

Electric guitar is a bit of a bigger issue, because even when he turns it down low, it tends to carry..... I think that has a lot to do with placement, so I will try and move it and see if it helps.

We have been talking about the drum shield, maybe half height, but I was worried about the back wall and the corner it's in being more of an issue that the direct sound.

A drum shield with acoustical treatment on the wall behind the drum kit. A full or partial acoustically treated top will certainly help. There's a company that makes "acoustical panel" tops but I can't think of their name.

Headphones don't really help if you still have loud guitar amps or drummers on stage. I find drummers are even louder when on headphones or IEM's. They don't realize how loud they are.

Make sure the guitar amps are aimed at the guitar players ears. Not at his knees. Get a kick back stand.

Musicians will get frustrated and not want to play if they are constantly told to turn down. 

Your problem is common in a lot of churches your size. And not just because of the stage design.

Do you have a sub woofer? Sometimes adding a sub will give the "appearance" of lower volume because the audience is not hearing only mids and highs which can sound harsh....loud



« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 07:36:26 pm by Jamin Lynch »
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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2015, 07:41:51 pm »

Place the amps in boxed enclosures off stage and mic them.

Otherwise, try and reverse the trend of seeking technical $olution$ for personnel problems.
So what you are saying is that this is a personnel issue and has nothing to do with the shape of the stage or the fact that is was designed to help a choir project sound into the congregation.

Cool, thanks.


You focused on the "otherwise" and missed the helpful part...

Sound treatment will not reduce the onstage volume.  Reducing the onstage volume will reduce the onstage volume.  Moving the amps off stage means your onstage sound will be less PLUS you'll be able to turn your monitors down, lessening the onstage volume even more.

It's not complicated or expensive to build amp-miking boxes.  Just make sure they're ventilated to avoid heat buildup.

You're welcome...
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 08:00:26 pm by dick rees »
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Jamin Lynch

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2015, 07:48:36 pm »

Found it.

http://www.clearsonic.com/sorber.htm

They also have shields for amps
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 07:55:59 pm by Jamin Lynch »
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2015, 09:13:23 pm »


Reducing the onstage volume will reduce the onstage volume.  Moving the amps off stage means your onstage sound will be less PLUS you'll be able to turn your monitors down, lessening the onstage volume even more.


This right here. 

As Dick said, and was said in the first few posts, your best starting point is to get the levels down.  If you also want to do treatment, that can certainly help the venue but it may not help with your specific problem.

Lee
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Jamin Lynch

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2015, 09:30:27 pm »

This right here. 

As Dick said, and was said in the first few posts, your best starting point is to get the levels down.  If you also want to do treatment, that can certainly help the venue but it may not help with your specific problem.

Lee

I'll bet the OP has already gone down the "please turn down" road several times.....looking for other options.

Some strategically placed acoustical treatment on the stage will certainly keep down reflections from the stage walls that end up in the audience. May not help a lot, but I think it would be worth it. It's helped with similar situations before.

If the drummer can't play any quieter, it's time for other options....drum shield, electronic drums

If the guitar player can't play any quieter, it's time for other options....amps off the stage,amp in an box or shielded.

Not much else you can do.
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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2015, 09:52:38 pm »

This right here. 

As Dick said, and was said in the first few posts, your best starting point is to get the levels down.  If you also want to do treatment, that can certainly help the venue but it may not help with your specific problem.

Lee

I want to offer a bit of an apology for the strident tone taken in giving advice.  I meant it as emphasis, not criticism. 

That said, any attempt at using sound absorption to compensate for too much on-stage sound is like putting band-aids on an open wound.  The proper trouble-shooting always starts at the source of the problem, or as the old saying has it, prior to the horse leaving the stable.
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Fred Dorado

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2015, 12:25:22 am »

thanks for the help guys.

Thursday is rehearsal and I have already decided we are going to move the guitar amp to a different location to see if that helps. My more experienced drummer is on this week so that should help me try and get some control.

As has been said, I have done the "turn it down" thing like crazy - I will continue to do so, but I am trying to find other things that would help so that "turn it down" is not the only tool in the tool box.

Dick, thanks and I understand.

I have thought about isolation boxes in the past but had a few problems as our system wasn't quite there to do that well and a few of the monitors were not that great.

I am in the process of making some other changes to fix that and am improving the mains and monitors. I thought controlling some of the sound would be part of the puzzle.

Anybody have any plans for making isolation boxes? If I move them off stage to another room, do I just run an extra long 1/4" cable from the guitarist?

I will also turn everything off in the monitors and add back in as needed.

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Steve M Smith

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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2015, 02:52:15 am »

I have already decided we are going to move the guitar amp to a different location to see if that helps.
I wasn't joking in my first post about it looking as if you were playing in a giant Martin B115.  That speaker approximates an exponential horn but with flat sides - as do the walls of your stage area.  You might find that you have some positions on stage which are at focal points of the shape and project sound more than other areas.  Keeping loud amplifiers out of those areas could make quite a difference.


Steve.
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Re: My Stage is a great big horn - hw to tame it?
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2015, 02:52:15 am »


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