Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Samee Rafiuddin]

Hey All,

I am new to this forum and a former DJ/AV Tech that is trying to assist their local H.O.W. with a new sound installation (vocal reinforcement, no instruments). I’ve spoken with 2-3 AV design/installation companies regarding speaker and amp offerings, but would like to get some opinions/advice from others that have used these products. I have experience with JBL and Crown, but not with brands such as, Renkus Heinz and Crestron. I’ve done quite a lot of research on RH, but reviews seem to be mixed.

Essentially, I’m trying to get feedback/opinions on the following (full details in attachments):

• SPEAKERS: JBL vs. Renkus-Heinz vs. something else?
• AMPS: Crown vs. Crestron vs. Powersoft vs. Biamp
• DSP’s: DBX vs. Symetrix vs. etc.

I was leaning towards the JBL solution, but I’m not sure if the models we’ve been quoted are good vs. what models/series’ might be better? Online searching doesn’t prove very effective.

I’ve attached a floor plan of the space (not a ceiling/speaker layout), if it helps, and 2 material lists. Budget is of course a consideration, but high-quality vocal communication is of the utmost importance.

I understand that each space and application are different and that there are vast differences with product lines within the same brand, but any recommendations on your experience with XYZ brands and model speakers/amps would be greatly appreciated! Thank you in advance.

[Ray Aberle]

What does your sound consultant think? …or are you trying to fill that role?

That's where an independent consultant is absolutely vital. They're someone that will help you to make the right choice between different proposals. They're not trying to sell you any product (and often, the bids you get can be "what we have a bunch of sitting in the warehouse," or even worse "what makes us the most profit," without any consideration as to whether they will fit the space.

Have either of the proposals proven to you why they feel it's the best option? Have they given you any acoustical models of the space to demonstrate how the coverage has been designed to fit your space?

-Ray

[Lee Buckalew]

Hey All,

I'm a n00b to this forum and a former DJ/AV Tech that is trying to assist their local church with a new sound installation (vocal reinforcement, no instruments). Over the past few months, I’ve been speaking with a few different AV design & installation companies regarding speaker and amp offerings. I have experience with some of the brands offered, such as JBL and Crown, but not with brands, Renkus Heinz and Crestron. I’ve done quite a lot of research on RH, but reviews seem to be mixed.

I’m leaning towards the JBL solution, but I’m not sure if what we’ve been quoted is good vs. what else might be better. I’ve tried researching on my own and have read good things about the JBL AE series (particularly regarding their drivers and cabinets), but the rabbit hole just goes deeper..

At this point, I’m taking to the interwebs to get some expert advice! I’ve attached a floor plan of the church, as well as 2 proposals (companies removed), and hope that you can provide some direction. Budget is of course a consideration, but high-quality vocal communication is of the utmost importance.

I understand that each space and application are different and that there are vast differences with product lines within the same brand, but any recommendations on your experience with XYZ brands and model speakers/amps would be greatly appreciated! Thank you 

I don't have time right now to look at any of this in depth but would suggest that you look at current models from the manufacturers in question.  The Crown CTS4200 listed on one proposal jumped out at me since this entire amp line was discontinued by Crown at least a month ago, maybe two months by now. 
Based on that look at each model that's recommended and confirm that they are current.  Require your bidders to provide new equipment of current models and warranty them following the install for a minimum of 1 year.  The installer provides a warranty and guaranteed service/turnaround time with a loaner or rental if the time can't be met.  This is in addition to but concurrent with the manufacturers warranty.  Of course neither (ptypically) covers misuse, neglect, etc.

Lee

[Mike Pyle]

I think it is pretty poor form to take a quote from a company that has designed a system for you and post it on an internet forum for comment, complete with model numbers and pricing. If it were my work you were doing this with I would be very unhappy about it.

[Scott Holtzman]

I think it's poor form to call a Mosque a church.  HOW would be appropriate.  I swore I would not get involved but everyone is right.  If posting the quotes from your potential vendor and asking for strangers opinions indicates you should not even be in the loop.  Pick a partner that you feel will support you.  Forget the equipment and make sure they guarantee quantifiable performance. 

[Samee Rafiuddin]

What does your sound consultant think? …or are you trying to fill that role?

That's where an independent consultant is absolutely vital. They're someone that will help you to make the right choice between different proposals. They're not trying to sell you any product (and often, the bids you get can be "what we have a bunch of sitting in the warehouse," or even worse "what makes us the most profit," without any consideration as to whether they will fit the space.

Have either of the proposals proven to you why they feel it's the best option? Have they given you any acoustical models of the space to demonstrate how the coverage has been designed to fit your space?

-Ray

Yes, I'm trying to fill that role. We're confident in both companies that we've narrowed it down to, but both are offering completely different hardware.. so hence I'm posting online to get some more experience-based feedback.

How would I locate an independent consultant? Through something like nsca.org or infocomm.org? Recommendations welcome..

Neither have proven why they feel it's best, good point. They have not provided acoustical models either. This is exactly why I'm posting, because this is very helpful information. Thank you very much for the insight

[Samee Rafiuddin]

I don't have time right now to look at any of this in depth but would suggest that you look at current models from the manufacturers in question.  The Crown CTS4200 listed on one proposal jumped out at me since this entire amp line was discontinued by Crown at least a month ago, maybe two months by now. 
Based on that look at each model that's recommended and confirm that they are current.  Require your bidders to provide new equipment of current models and warranty them following the install for a minimum of 1 year.  The installer provides a warranty and guaranteed service/turnaround time with a loaner or rental if the time can't be met.  This is in addition to but concurrent with the manufacturers warranty.  Of course neither (ptypically) covers misuse, neglect, etc.

Lee

Thanks for the advice, Lee. I'll be sure to run down each hardware list and validate. Loaner/rental info is good to know as well, thanks again!

[Samee Rafiuddin]

I think it is pretty poor form to take a quote from a company that has designed a system for you and post it on an internet forum for comment, complete with model numbers and pricing. If it were my work you were doing this with I would be very unhappy about it.

As I mentioned, I'm new to this forum and trying to get some feedback from others with hands-on experience. I removed all pricing and restructured my original post. Apologies for any offense. That was not my intention..

[Samee Rafiuddin]

I think it's poor form to call a Mosque a church.  HOW would be appropriate.  I swore I would not get involved but everyone is right.  If posting the quotes from your potential vendor and asking for strangers opinions indicates you should not even be in the loop.  Pick a partner that you feel will support you.  Forget the equipment and make sure they guarantee quantifiable performance.

Scott, I wasn't trying to deceive people on this forum, as I think calling a Mosque a Church is the same as tomato/tom[ah]to, IMO. Also, the subject of my initial post clearly states "H.O.W. sound install", it was a technical typo. Nonetheless, I apologize if you were offended and/or mislead somehow. Not my intention..

The few positive responses I've received have proven to me that receiving viable feedback is possible. I've restructured the wording in my post, as well as removed all pricing from the quotes. I was simply trying to gain feedback on different types of brands/models being offered, as real-world opinions and experience matter to me. There are plenty of vendors that will speak VERY highly of the products they offer, simply because they're incentivized by the manufacturer and/or they make more on their bottom-line selling them. Hope that provides some clarity to my original post..

[Karl Maciag]

Samee,

When it comes to solutions for this application, the different brands offer pretty similar products. I would spend less time worrying about which speaker is specified, and concentrate on how the system is going to be operated by you, or other volunteers. How will you control volume in the different spaces? How will you control the volume of your microphones? Can you control individual microphones, or will you be controlling them all as a group? Be sure the companies you're talking with understand what your expectations are with how things will work for the end users. Spend a lot of time investigating how easy it will be for you to operate.

On the technical side, one thing I've noticed is that there is limited, or no DSP to time align speakers in the space. I am assuming that in the large prayer area, they are planning on having surface mount speakers running down the walls to cover the space. These speakers need to be time aligned to provide the best intelligibility of the vocals. Ask your vendors about this.

Ask the vendors you are talking to if they have completed work in your area that you might be able to check out. It might not be a Mosque, but maybe they have an example of a system in an older long hall Catholic church, the same principles will apply. Hopefully you can hear an example, and talk with the end users about what they like, and what they might have done differently after they've had their system for a while.

Ask a lot of questions to the vendors, and don't let price be the final decision for what you buy. Put experience and expertise over price. Too often I see HOW spend money twice because they bought cheap the first time, and it didn't work out.

[Samee Rafiuddin]

Samee,

When it comes to solutions for this application, the different brands offer pretty similar products. I would spend less time worrying about which speaker is specified, and concentrate on how the system is going to be operated by you, or other volunteers. How will you control volume in the different spaces? How will you control the volume of your microphones? Can you control individual microphones, or will you be controlling them all as a group? Be sure the companies you're talking with understand what your expectations are with how things will work for the end users. Spend a lot of time investigating how easy it will be for you to operate.

On the technical side, one thing I've noticed is that there is limited, or no DSP to time align speakers in the space. I am assuming that in the large prayer area, they are planning on having surface mount speakers running down the walls to cover the space. These speakers need to be time aligned to provide the best intelligibility of the vocals. Ask your vendors about this.

Ask the vendors you are talking to if they have completed work in your area that you might be able to check out. It might not be a Mosque, but maybe they have an example of a system in an older long hall Catholic church, the same principles will apply. Hopefully you can hear an example, and talk with the end users about what they like, and what they might have done differently after they've had their system for a while.

Ask a lot of questions to the vendors, and don't let price be the final decision for what you buy. Put experience and expertise over price. Too often I see HOW spend money twice because they bought cheap the first time, and it didn't work out.

Hi Karl,

Thanks for outlining these key discussion points. RH is mysterious online. Some people say its horrible, others rave about it--there's no in between, but I agree, they should be comparable.

On the DSP topic, you're absolutely right. I try to be diligent in my research and read through the following documentation I found online:

• Audio in Houses of Worship (Rane)
• Is Sound Quality Important in a House of Worship? ... (Bose)

I will surely bring this critical point up with them.

I've asked for references, but both are very difficult to get responses from ..and these are the better guys from all I've contacted. I will definitely see some of their existing works, as I believe the 'proof is in the pudding'.

Great advice overall. Thanks again for your time!

[ProSoundWeb Community]