ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: O1v96 advice - GEAR UPDATE 14/04/2016  (Read 3790 times)

TimHackford

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
O1v96 advice - GEAR UPDATE 14/04/2016
« on: March 26, 2015, 10:40:55 am »

Hi Everyone this is my first post tho I've been lurking here for about a week or so now and have already learnt so much so thank you, I would say I would love to be able to contribute here and give back what I've learnt but I don't know anywhere near as much as you guys but will continue to learn! Apologies for any un-technical terms I use..I am still learning.

Ok so down to business, I run the live sound for my live function band we use two tops and two subs..all the members are on IEM's so no monitors. We have been using for the last 2 and a half years the original 1998 Yamaha O1v, while I don't think its a bad mixer its very limited on capabilities so have long been due an upgrade. I was offered a O1v96v1 locally for quite cheap (450) and as I thought I was familiar with the way Yamaha digital mixers work I brought it. I was hoping it would have more eq possibilities as I have read on here that some guys manage to get by without the need for a Graphic EQ and I tried running the speakers straight into the desk without our GEQ and the sound was so clear and refined I couldn't really believe the diifferenc I am sure we could get by without it..but by the time I have pulled out the 3-4 bands of feedback on the main vocal mics and the 2-3 bands of feedback from the guitars I am left with little to no eq control over the cutting and boosting of the vocals and guitars to make it sound how we want it. So is there a special trick anyone uses to get round this problem or something I can do to get more gain before feedback or even more bands over their peq a few more filters etc?, Im still not completely to grips with all the routing but I'm getting there its a completely different animal compared to the O1V we were using.

Thanks for any help you can give me
Tim
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 05:37:12 pm by TimHackford »
Logged

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4282
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: O1v96 advice
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 10:53:15 am »

Hi Everyone this is my first post tho I've been lurking here for about a week or so now and have already learnt so much so thank you, I would say I would love to be able to contribute here and give back what I've learnt but I don't know anywhere near as much as you guys but will continue to learn! Apologies for any un-technical terms I use..I am still learning.

Ok so down to business, I run the live sound for my live function band we use two tops and two subs..all the members are on IEM's so no monitors. We have been using for the last 2 and a half years the original 1998 Yamaha O1v, while I don't think its a bad mixer its very limited on capabilities so have long been due an upgrade. I was offered a O1v96v1 locally for quite cheap (450) and as I thought I was familiar with the way Yamaha digital mixers work I brought it. I was hoping it would have more eq possibilities as I have read on here that some guys manage to get by without the need for a Graphic EQ and I tried running the speakers straight into the desk without our GEQ and the sound was so clear and refined I couldn't really believe the diifferenc I am sure we could get by without it..but by the time I have pulled out the 3-4 bands of feedback on the main vocal mics and the 2-3 bands of feedback from the guitars I am left with little to no eq control over the cutting and boosting of the vocals and guitars to make it sound how we want it. So is there a special trick anyone uses to get round this problem or something I can do to get more gain before feedback or even more bands over their peq a few more filters etc?, Im still not completely to grips with all the routing but I'm getting there its a completely different animal compared to the O1V we were using.

Thanks for any help you can give me
Tim
The 01v96 is no small upgrade over the original 01v.  I have two 01v96 boards.  Typically you will still use a DSP system processor after the main outs of the board, and there you can do your speaker refining.  Failing that, use the EQ on the LR mains to get close.

Channel EQs of the 01v96 are like any other board, and actually are pretty generous compared to the analog world.  If you need more EQ than that, you're doing something wrong somewhere.  The temptation with visual EQ is to make super narrow cuts, which often aren't the best choice.  Try widening the EQ bands when you make your changes and you'll likely be better off.

If you still need more EQ (and you shouldn't), you can run your channels into groups and get more EQ bands there.
Logged

TimHackford

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
Re: O1v96 advice
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 01:10:45 pm »

The 01v96 is no small upgrade over the original 01v.  I have two 01v96 boards.  Typically you will still use a DSP system processor after the main outs of the board, and there you can do your speaker refining.  Failing that, use the EQ on the LR mains to get close.

Channel EQs of the 01v96 are like any other board, and actually are pretty generous compared to the analog world.  If you need more EQ than that, you're doing something wrong somewhere.  The temptation with visual EQ is to make super narrow cuts, which often aren't the best choice.  Try widening the EQ bands when you make your changes and you'll likely be better off.

If you still need more EQ (and you shouldn't), you can run your channels into groups and get more EQ bands there.

Thank you very much for the informative reply, no i realise the o1v96 is nothing like the o1v but I am really enjoying it the sound quality difference is just wonderful. I understand what you mean about the temptation with visual eq is to make narrow cuts, I also watched a few online videos sweeping about feedback and using digital desks and PEQ's they also used narrow cuts but I think thats where I am going wrong and will try widening the bands! I will also try fine tuning with the DSP, just found Ivan Beavers o1v96 manual that makes much more sense to me then the Yamaha one.

Thanks again
Tim
Logged

Jay Barracato

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2025
  • Solomons, MD
Re: O1v96 advice
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 01:59:17 pm »

I do a lot of shows with just the 01v96 without my system processor and have never felt the lack eq. Perhaps there are other things in how you are setting up the stage, the choice of microphones, and other details that are leading to the feedback problems.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Logged
Jay Barracato

Douglas R. Allen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1045
Re: O1v96 advice
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 08:27:20 pm »

My 01v96 boots up and says 2003 so I've had mine for a few years.  If you need more eq for your mains you could assign your channels to a stereo bus. Go to group/pair layer. Select the output tab. Make bus 1+2 a stereo pair. To check this select your Master tab just right of layer 1-16 and 17 - 32 buttons.
Channels 9 and 10 or Bus 1 / 2 masters should be linked now. If you move up channel 9 , 10 should follow.

Now go to Pan-Route button and select you 1-16 route tab. These channels may be selected to S or stereo out. UNselect these channels from stereo and assign them to bus 1 and 2. Do the same for 17 - 32 if you use these channels as well.

Next select the Bus to St tab. Pan 1 to the Left. 2 to the right. Turn these channels on and bring the faders up to the top (unity) Please note if you run a mono PA you'll only need 1 Bus and need to run just the 1 master. Channel 1 panned to center.

Your ready to go back to your master layer now. Be sure to have channels 9-10 (bus masters) all the way up and turned on. Push channel 9 select button , Channel 10 should flash as well if linked correctly. With channel 9 selected push your eq high button. It should say eq Bus 1 - Bus 1. Because you have 9 and 10 stereo linked any eq changes on this channel will be reflected in 10 as well. If you eq on channel 9 , bus 1 master you'll see the same eq on channel 10 if you push its select button.

What all this does is run your channels through a bus on to the L/R master out. It gives you 4 more bands of parametric eq for your mains or 8 bands of parametric eq total. Quite a bit to need but thought I'd run this by you.

Please note this is from memory so the wording / overall tabs may not be 100 percent the same but I hope this will get you close enough.

Douglas R. Allen
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 08:39:28 pm by Douglas R. Allen »
Logged

Tim Weaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2324
  • College Station, Texas
    • Daniela Weaver Photography
Re: O1v96 advice
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 08:42:39 pm »

lets start by finding out about the rest of your set up. What speakers, amps, mics are you using?
Logged
Bullwinkle: This is the amplifier, which amplifies the sound. This is the Preamplifier which, of course, amplifies the pree's.

TimHackford

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
Re: O1v96 advice
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2015, 04:58:26 am »

My 01v96 boots up and says 2003 so I've had mine for a few years.  If you need more eq for your mains you could assign your channels to a stereo bus. Go to group/pair layer. Select the output tab. Make bus 1+2 a stereo pair. To check this select your Master tab just right of layer 1-16 and 17 - 32 buttons.
Channels 9 and 10 or Bus 1 / 2 masters should be linked now. If you move up channel 9 , 10 should follow.

Now go to Pan-Route button and select you 1-16 route tab. These channels may be selected to S or stereo out. UNselect these channels from stereo and assign them to bus 1 and 2. Do the same for 17 - 32 if you use these channels as well.

Next select the Bus to St tab. Pan 1 to the Left. 2 to the right. Turn these channels on and bring the faders up to the top (unity) Please note if you run a mono PA you'll only need 1 Bus and need to run just the 1 master. Channel 1 panned to center.

Your ready to go back to your master layer now. Be sure to have channels 9-10 (bus masters) all the way up and turned on. Push channel 9 select button , Channel 10 should flash as well if linked correctly. With channel 9 selected push your eq high button. It should say eq Bus 1 - Bus 1. Because you have 9 and 10 stereo linked any eq changes on this channel will be reflected in 10 as well. If you eq on channel 9 , bus 1 master you'll see the same eq on channel 10 if you push its select button.

What all this does is run your channels through a bus on to the L/R master out. It gives you 4 more bands of parametric eq for your mains or 8 bands of parametric eq total. Quite a bit to need but thought I'd run this by you.

Please note this is from memory so the wording / overall tabs may not be 100 percent the same but I hope this will get you close enough.

Douglas R. Allen

Wow I honestly couldnt of hoped or asked for a more detailed reply! Thank you ever so much Doug I will most certainly be giving this a go..still trying to understand all the routing options on this mixer and get a little lost at times its so different to the original o1v but you made that sound so easy to follow!

Tim  - I am using 2x SRM 450v2 speakers, 2x Alto Ts15" subwoofers, vocal microphones are Sennheiser E945's we use 3. Guitar cab mics are Shure 57 beta's, drums are mic'd with AKG drum set and SM57 on snare..bass we DI in as well as acoustics.

Thanks again guys you really are being more help then I could ever of hoped for.

Logged

Tim Weaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2324
  • College Station, Texas
    • Daniela Weaver Photography
Re: O1v96 advice
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2015, 10:49:40 am »

Wow I honestly couldnt of hoped or asked for a more detailed reply! Thank you ever so much Doug I will most certainly be giving this a go..still trying to understand all the routing options on this mixer and get a little lost at times its so different to the original o1v but you made that sound so easy to follow!

Tim  - I am using 2x SRM 450v2 speakers, 2x Alto Ts15" subwoofers, vocal microphones are Sennheiser E945's we use 3. Guitar cab mics are Shure 57 beta's, drums are mic'd with AKG drum set and SM57 on snare..bass we DI in as well as acoustics.

Thanks again guys you really are being more help then I could ever of hoped for.




I know you don't want to hear it, but I would look into upgrading your mackie's. You are using up a lot of EQ, simply because the mackie's don't sound that good out of the box and you have feedback or just sound quality issues to fix with the eq.

I'm sure I could make the 4 band parametric work (I also own an 01v96) but, I find that when I have to fight feedback AND make a crappy speaker sound good I start running out of EQ on the board pretty fast. One trick I do, that may work for you or not, is to double up the inputs on the second layer and use one set for the mains and the other set for monitors/iems. This allows you to have specific and wildly different eq curves on every input depending on where it will be used (mains vs monitors). You will have to remember which layer you are on when you make adjustments though. It can get tricky, and I wouldn't recommend it if you are running sound from the stage while playing!


Maybe look into the Yamaha DSR112's for a replacement to the mackie's. Those are excellent speakers. and will improve every facet of your performance.
Logged
Bullwinkle: This is the amplifier, which amplifies the sound. This is the Preamplifier which, of course, amplifies the pree's.

TimHackford

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
Re: O1v96 advice
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2016, 05:36:12 pm »

Hey Guys just thought I would give an update to my whole situtation I know its late and I'm sorry.

We got shot of the whole PA except the desk we now run

2X RCF 732a tops
2x RCF 905as Subs
and the sound is to our ears amazing!

I've got grips with the desk so much more now, there is no feedback anymore, it took a whole to figure out the gain structure with this desk tho Im still not sure I have it right here is how I'm running it now.

 I found that without the PAD switches engaged the sound was very on edge to feedback at all times tho this is how the manual tells you how to set the gain correctly by getting each or most channels to clipping occasionally then backing the gain down slightly..found this really not that great.

Where as with the PAD switches engaged its so much more manageble, We have a good sense of stage sound, and volume, all the amps are elevated and we have IEM's so no monitors to increase stage volume.
 I get the meters on the desk for the channels reading around -12 to -6 and if i need anymore gain on a channel that I cant get with the gain knob then I use the gain attentuator found on the channels EQ page seems to works really well!

I have the Master Fader at around -10 to -5 its around here I find is a really great sound, it pushes the speakers sightly to a really sweet spot and doesnt seem to damage them atall..the signal light is active but never gone to peak or anything. Due to them being active speakers I can control the volume of them to a non ear damaging level while still sounding excellent..we find generally we dont need to go past 10:30 or 11 O'Clock on the level control on the speakers.

Not too sure how many other guys are using the desk this way I know one guy that does and there band sounds phenominal..a really great sound..can hear every instruemnt perfectly very low noise floor and a very clear sound.

Do you guys think im doing anything wrong here or anything that is going to cause my speakers or desk any damage in the long run? We are gigging roughly 3 times a week so need this this be as reliable as possible!

Again sorry for the late reply just thought you may like an update!

Tim
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8886
  • Atlanta GA
Re: O1v96 advice
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2016, 05:49:52 pm »

You are not going to get any more gain with the pads in vs the pads out.

The ONLY thing the pads will do is to lower a hot signal and keep the mic preamp from clipping.

It is another one of those audio myths.

People think that by putting in the pads they can turn up the level more.

Yes they can push the faders up higher, but the GAIN of the system will be the same because the signals will be LOWERED by the same amount.

Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20509
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: O1v96 advice
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2016, 06:21:42 pm »

Hey Guys just thought I would give an update to my whole situtation I know its late and I'm sorry.

We got shot of the whole PA except the desk we now run

2X RCF 732a tops
2x RCF 905as Subs
and the sound is to our ears amazing!

I've got grips with the desk so much more now, there is no feedback anymore, it took a whole to figure out the gain structure with this desk tho Im still not sure I have it right here is how I'm running it now.

I found that without the PAD switches engaged the sound was very on edge to feedback at all times tho this is how the manual tells you how to set the gain correctly by getting each or most channels to clipping occasionally then backing the gain down slightly..found this really not that great.

I'm not sure what manual you are referring to but I don't believe that is in Yamaha's owners manual.

Quote

Where as with the PAD switches engaged its so much more manageble, We have a good sense of stage sound, and volume, all the amps are elevated and we have IEM's so no monitors to increase stage volume.
I get the meters on the desk for the channels reading around -12 to -6 and if i need anymore gain on a channel that I cant get with the gain knob then I use the gain attentuator found on the channels EQ page seems to works really well!

I have the Master Fader at around -10 to -5 its around here I find is a really great sound, it pushes the speakers sightly to a really sweet spot and doesnt seem to damage them atall..the signal light is active but never gone to peak or anything. Due to them being active speakers I can control the volume of them to a non ear damaging level while still sounding excellent..we find generally we dont need to go past 10:30 or 11 O'Clock on the level control on the speakers.

Not too sure how many other guys are using the desk this way I know one guy that does and there band sounds phenominal..a really great sound..can hear every instruemnt perfectly very low noise floor and a very clear sound.

Do you guys think im doing anything wrong here or anything that is going to cause my speakers or desk any damage in the long run? We are gigging roughly 3 times a week so need this this be as reliable as possible!

Again sorry for the late reply just thought you may like an update!

Tim

First, ditto to what Ivan said about pads.  You don't use them unless there is too much signal with the input trim fully down (it's not "off", BTW).

Second I think you are running the mixer too hot.  You do NOT need to set input trim for a PFL level of -12 to -6 DBFS.  That's NOT dBu (VU units from analog) but DB FULL SCALE.  At 0 (zero) DBFS there are no more 1s available.  You are a bit under digital clipping.  0 DBFS at the output of the mixer corresponds to +20ish dBu.  You should have your input trim set for signals to PFL at around -18DBFS.  You have some headroom for peaks that way.

Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

TimHackford

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
Re: O1v96 advice - GEAR UPDATE 14/04/2016
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2016, 08:36:25 pm »

Hey guys thanks for the replies, So tonight I tried running the mixer less hot, the input trim PFL on the chanels are hitting around -18DBFS and with the speakers set to 12'o clock position it sounds SO much better, I thought it was clear before but this is just amazing thanks very much, much more control over the master fader too! I dont know why when looking online I couldnt find anything about running the input signals on the 01v96 like this.

I understand what you are saying in regards to the PAD switches but to my ears the sound is alot less harsh with the PAD switches engaged especially on electric guitars. With the pad switches out there is a real harshness to the sound that no EQ can fix or any that I have tried, it sounds like its distorting ths tweeter on the 732a Tops even tho the input PFL are hitting the -18DBFS mark and the mixer is showing NO sign of clipping at all! With the pad switch engaged and the level hitting -18DBFS the harshness goes and sounds just much better and the distorting sound goes away...Can somebody explain this?

The mics I have used on the guitar amp is a Shure 57 and the amp is a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe III.

Thanks again for all your help so far

Best regards
Tim
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 08:42:23 pm by TimHackford »
Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20509
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: O1v96 advice - GEAR UPDATE 14/04/2016
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2016, 09:24:42 pm »

Hey guys thanks for the replies, So tonight I tried running the mixer less hot, the input trim PFL on the chanels are hitting around -18DBFS and with the speakers set to 12'o clock position it sounds SO much better, I thought it was clear before but this is just amazing thanks very much, much more control over the master fader too! I dont know why when looking online I couldnt find anything about running the input signals on the 01v96 like this.

I understand what you are saying in regards to the PAD switches but to my ears the sound is alot less harsh with the PAD switches engaged especially on electric guitars. With the pad switches out there is a real harshness to the sound that no EQ can fix or any that I have tried, it sounds like its distorting ths tweeter on the 732a Tops even tho the input PFL are hitting the -18DBFS mark and the mixer is showing NO sign of clipping at all! With the pad switch engaged and the level hitting -18DBFS the harshness goes and sounds just much better and the distorting sound goes away...Can somebody explain this?

The mics I have used on the guitar amp is a Shure 57 and the amp is a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe III.

Thanks again for all your help so far

Best regards
Tim

Pads inherently change the impedance of the input circuit.  Not by a lot, but I can hear a difference in many mixers when the pad is engaged.

The SM57 has a "presence peak" that makes the hyped HF of most guitar player's "tone" even more grating.  I'd start by using 1 band of the input channel EQ to do reciprocal duty or change the mic to something with less HF boost.  Go to Shure's site and look at the response for the 57.
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Tim Padrick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 909
  • Indianapolis
    • T.P. Audio
Re: O1v96 advice - GEAR UPDATE 14/04/2016
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2016, 01:25:56 am »

Many will say I'm crazy, but as there is no iPad or Android remote for the O1V96, I think I'd just as soon have an X32-Rack or even an XR18.
Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20509
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: O1v96 advice - GEAR UPDATE 14/04/2016
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2016, 01:44:51 am »

Many will say I'm crazy, but as there is no iPad or Android remote for the O1V96, I think I'd just as soon have an X32-Rack or even an XR18.

Not every application requires a remote control so his 01v96 is fine.  It's also a learning experience for him and what he groks today can be used tomorrow.

I have an X32 Rack and a full size X32, plus an 01v96II and original 01v in my personal inventory.  Not being a politician, can I be biased in favor of both? 8)
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

David Sturzenbecher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1613
  • So. Dak.
    • Sturz Audio
Re: O1v96 advice - GEAR UPDATE 14/04/2016
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2016, 08:30:05 am »

Many will say I'm crazy, but as there is no iPad or Android remote for the O1V96, I think I'd just as soon have an X32-Rack or even an XR18.

False

https://www.airfader.com
Logged
Audio Systems Design Engineer
Daktronics, Inc.
CTS-D, CTS-I
AES Full Member

Tim Weaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2324
  • College Station, Texas
    • Daniela Weaver Photography
Re: O1v96 advice - GEAR UPDATE 14/04/2016
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2016, 06:03:02 pm »

False

https://www.airfader.com

Yeah I was remote mixing on my 01v96 way before the behringer came out. Even before the mackie stuff was available....
Logged
Bullwinkle: This is the amplifier, which amplifies the sound. This is the Preamplifier which, of course, amplifies the pree's.

richard_cooper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 125
Re: O1v96 advice - GEAR UPDATE 14/04/2016
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2016, 04:13:34 am »

False

https://www.airfader.com

+1 Fujitsu Lifebook, USB server (or more recently a raspberry pi with virtualhere), and Studio manager for years now.........
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: O1v96 advice - GEAR UPDATE 14/04/2016
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2016, 04:13:34 am »


Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.028 seconds with 24 queries.