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[Clint Miller]

I bought a Seismic Audio CLA-2X5 array. They sound clean and clear, but they're a little brash; which makes sense. They are 2 5" drivers with a compression horn...
I need to run an RTA to set up my speaker management settings.  Has anyone done this successfully, and if so, do you have any pointers?
Thanks!
Clint

[Ivan Beaver]

I bought a Seismic Audio CLA-2X5 array. They sound clean and clear, but they're a little brash; which makes sense. They are 2 5" drivers with a compression horn...
I need to run an RTA to set up my speaker management settings.  Has anyone done this successfully, and if so, do you have any pointers?
Thanks!
Clint

An RTA is NOT the proper tool for system alignment.

While it can give you "some information", it is very limited.

[Mark McFarlane]

Clint, There is a separate forum for system measurement.

[Tim McCulloch]

I bought a Seismic Audio CLA-2X5 array. They sound clean and clear, but they're a little brash; which makes sense. They are 2 5" drivers with a compression horn...
I need to run an RTA to set up my speaker management settings.  Has anyone done this successfully, and if so, do you have any pointers?
Thanks!
Clint

System settings - crossovers, limiters, protective filters - should come from the manufacturer.  If Seismic doesn't have them I suggest you purchased the wrong product from the wrong manufacturer.

[John L Nobile]

I bought a Seismic Audio CLA-2X5 array. They sound clean and clear, but they're a little brash; which makes sense. They are 2 5" drivers with a compression horn...
I need to run an RTA to set up my speaker management settings.  Has anyone done this successfully, and if so, do you have any pointers?
Thanks!
Clint

I'm curious as to why it makes sense that they sound brash? And what is the frequency range of brash or is that a phase issue? If it's the latter then eqing won't be much help.

[Clint Miller]

I know I bought an inexpensive system that I don't expect to sound like an EAW ANYA system.  I know it's cheap and most people hate it.  Fine... That's understandable.  I thought some of the more experienced users here could help with analyzing and correcting my system so I could get as much out of it as possible.
It sounds brash because I'm running all small drivers with no correction. 
I don't want to be insulted or treated like a fool for coming to guys with more experience for help.  I thought that what this forum was for.  Surely some guys here started on lesser respected equipment that helped them get to the next level...

[Clint Miller]

...And if I posted in the wrong place, I apologize.  Would a moderator please put this in the correct forum?  Thanks!

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

I know I bought an inexpensive system that I don't expect to sound like an EAW ANYA system.  I know it's cheap and most people hate it.  Fine... That's understandable.  I thought some of the more experienced users here could help with analyzing and correcting my system so I could get as much out of it as possible.
It sounds brash because I'm running all small drivers with no correction. 
I don't want to be insulted or treated like a fool for coming to guys with more experience for help.  I thought that what this forum was for.  Surely some guys here started on lesser respected equipment that helped them get to the next level...

Hi Clint.  Using an RTA is fine, and is a useful tool.  You can probably make your boxes sound significantly better using that, however the full answer is bigger than a breadbox, as they say.  How many boxes do you have?  How are you splaying them?  What subs do you have?

Some of the frustration here is that you bought a product from a manufacturer that offers almost no specs or application guidance whatsoever.  We can't possibly give you any specific help with no data.  That being said, generally the process is:

- Figure out by trial and error if necessary what your speakers' vertical coverage is, and play with the splay angle to get it to sound good.  I would guess you're going to be using either 6° or 12° per box if you have 3-4 per side. 
- Set up a basic high-pass filter in your DSP of maybe 80Hz LR 24dB/Octave for your mains boxes
- Set up a basic high-pass filter in your DSP of maybe 35Hz and a low-pass filter of 80Hz LR 24dB for your subs.
- Turn on only one side of your system for the following:
- Reverse the polarity of your subs and play a sine wave at the crossover frequency you are using - 80Hz in the example above.
- Adjust the delay of your subs until the sound gets as quiet as possible - this is called nulling.
- After your test, return the polarity of your subs back to normal, and you have made a timing approximation that will help your subs connect with your mains.
- Use your RTA to set things approximately flat.  You may have to do gain leveling if your subs are hotter than the mains or vice versa.  This may require re-nulling your system.

From here, use your ears to refine.  You may want to raise the crossover point to 100Hz or even 120Hz if your mains struggle in the low mids (pretty likely with a 5" box), but it's very difficult to know without experimenting in the absence of manufacturer data and support.

It may be worth a few dollars to ask a local person to come help you do an initial setup of your system.  If you post your location, someone may be willing to spend a couple hours with you to get your gear setup.

[Clint Miller]

From here, use your ears to refine.  You may want to raise the crossover point to 100Hz or even 120Hz if your mains struggle in the low mids (pretty likely with a 5" box), but it's very difficult to know without experimenting in the absence of manufacturer data and support.

Tom, Thanks!  I'm running EAW LA400 subs.  I set the system up last weekend to just mess around with it and ran 4 boxes per side with just two subs in a one acre field. I have 16 boxes and will likely use all 16 with 8 subs for small festivals, and eight with four subs for club shows.  I figured I'd need to set up processor settings for both configurations.

I'm going to try your suggestions, and I'll let you know how it turns out.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Tom, Thanks!  I'm running EAW LA400 subs.  I set the system up last weekend to just mess around with it and ran 4 boxes per side with just two subs in a one acre field. I have 16 boxes and will likely use all 16 with 8 subs for small festivals, and eight with four subs for club shows.  I figured I'd need to set up processor settings for both configurations.

I'm going to try your suggestions, and I'll let you know how it turns out.

With more boxes, you may want to try the 3° setting.  Get them up as high as you can.

[Bob Faulkner]

Be VERY careful when running those CLA cabinets.  If the SA specs are correct, those are 75watt (continuous) rated speakers, and at 16 ohms.  You'll be able run more cabinets off of one amp... but watch your power levels.

[Tim McCulloch]

Clint, Seismic should be able to supply you with the information necessary to successfully operate their speaker system without undue risk of damage and for maximum output and sound quality.  That they provide NOTHING, not even lame aiming tool, says they don't give rat's ass about you, your customers, or anything other than slapping drivers in a plywood box in China and selling them.

This isn't about bashing you personally, but that you need to be provided with the information necessary to be successful.  That they cannot or will not would leave me  feeling abandoned against my competitors who purchased products that come with effective manufacturer's support.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

I'm going to say what everyone is thinking but are too polite to put it out there.  I'm too old and crabby to care if the truth hurts.

Just write this off as the tuition for learning what to avoid.  The best thing you can do with those cabs is blow them up and replace them with something real.

[Ray Aberle]

I'm going to say what everyone is thinking but are too polite to put it out there.  I'm too old and crabby to care if the truth hurts.

Just write this off as the tuition for learning what to avoid.  The best thing you can do with those cabs is blow them up and replace them with something real.

I just spent ten minutes amusing myself with some fun from 2011. Clint, have you asked Seismic at ALL as to what their system can/will do? Have you asked them for calculators and other tools as would be required to setup and deploy their system correctly?

Looks like this box is $279 each. And I presume they'll cut a deal if you are buying 16 of them. So you could have over $4,000 invested in these boxes. I know that just ONE VT4886 would be nearly that much... but it would be backed by JBL and 60-something years of experience designing and building speakers. If I were you, I would think LONG and HARD if you want to be invested in a company that doesn't seem... to... know... what... they... are... doing... especially when it comes to post-sale support of their customer.

If memory serves me (helped by checking some of your previous posts) you had some EAW LA400 subs and maybe some LA460 tops. Did you consider any EAW top options? The KF850 is always a good option and whereas it's heavy, sounds good and has output for days. I suspect even a pair of those (and 4 is better, 2/side) would kill these SA boxes.

What about rigging? Do these SA boxes have any kind of rigging support? What does SA rate them for, as in how many boxes per hang? Do they sell the flybars as well? And do you have experience rigging them, or are you just going to try to ground stack?

-Ray

[Thomas Le]

Truth be told that SA provides no support for the "line array" series, they're just a part of the "me too" crowd hopping on the bandwagon thinking of the next moneymaker for the uninformed customer. Coming on this board asking for settings when every other major player (EAW, JBL, L'acoustics, Meyer, etc.) provides presets and other detailed documentation shows that SA is not a brand to buy from when looking for line arrays. If you bought the "line array" for ground stacking, you'd be better off with a point-source sub-sat stack.

[Clint Miller]

Here's the deal: I'm aware that I bought very CHEAP boxes.  I used to run KF650 boxes.  They were awesome...  But they are way too heavy to fly.  I currently have a Tvi C210ii array and that sounds great.  But they are also heavy.  I work in an extremely competitive market where I MUST keep my costs down, with both equipment AND labor.
Even if you think my equipment is complete garbage, who cares?  This isn't a thread to review equipment you wouldn't touch with a 10' pole.  I was looking for advise to help deal with what I have.  I'm not selling my cheap boxes and getting L'acoustics.  I couldn't if I wanted to.  I'm just asking for advise from those willing to share their experience.  That's all.  I really do appreciate the help you all give.  I'll try anything and let y'all know how it works out...

[Ray Aberle]

Clint, it's not as much that we are taking issue with the actual equipment-- it's the fact that they're offering you absolutely NO post-sale support. They are not providing you with ANY amplifier/processor tuning files, coverage prediction software, or even crossover points of their own speakers. The lack of post-sale support has caused you to turn here-- but without someone having the physical box in front of us, you're limited to following the steps that TJ laid out. Have you tried TJ's suggestions yet?

When you get into the "Big Boy" level of rigs, you learn how important that manufacturer support really is. I understand and appreciate that you are needing to keep your costs as low as possible, but as has been said, "The Wrong Piece Of Gear At The Right Price Is Still The Wrong Piece Of Gear."

I'll repeat (phrased differently, though) what I said before: What does it say about Seismic Audio that they care so little about you after the sale that they are unable or unwilling to provide you with the tools and information you need to be successful with their speaker systems?

-Ray

[John L Nobile]

Looking at the specs on those boxes, the xover is at 3k. I imagine that is where you're getting the brash sound. Since the manufacturer doesn't have settings, you'll have to play with the xover points/slopes/polarity etc. I'd suggest that you get someone knowlegable in that has a Smaart or equivalent system and get the best settings for those boxes.

[Clint Miller]

... but without someone having the physical box in front of us, you're limited to following the steps that TJ laid out. Have you tried TJ's suggestions yet?

-Ray

No... I plan on trying it this weekend.  I wish I had tuning data for the boxes for sure!  Honestly, I have tuning data for KF650 boxes and the 460s, but it was worthless because until I got the iNuke amps, I didn't have all of the processing paramaters I needed.  My driverack, BBE480, and XTi amps didn't...  Joe F. at EAW told me that they would sound like crap (and they did) unless I ran them full range... Not the 650s... Those I had to run bi-amped instead of tri-amped...

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Here's the deal: I'm aware that I bought very CHEAP boxes.  I used to run KF650 boxes.  They were awesome...  But they are way too heavy to fly.  I currently have a Tvi C210ii array and that sounds great.  But they are also heavy.  I work in an extremely competitive market where I MUST keep my costs down, with both equipment AND labor.
Even if you think my equipment is complete garbage, who cares?  This isn't a thread to review equipment you wouldn't touch with a 10' pole.  I was looking for advise to help deal with what I have.  I'm not selling my cheap boxes and getting L'acoustics.  I couldn't if I wanted to.  I'm just asking for advise from those willing to share their experience.  That's all.  I really do appreciate the help you all give.  I'll try anything and let y'all know how it works out...

Clint, I wish you the best, and hope that you will get the quality and output that you desire. 

Just one point to ponder for future use:

You bought 16 boxes at $280, which totals $4500.  They are 16Ω boxes, so you can potentially run 8 per side for a 2Ω load to your amp, but two amps would be better.  Peavey IPR 7500 amps with DSP are $1100, so the boxes plus a pair of amps are going to be roughly $7500, not counting some flying mechanism.

From the spec sheets they have a peak SPL of 125dB.  Assuming perfect summation (which isn't realistic), a set of four boxes set at 0° would produce 137dB, and the HF will be like a laser beam.  8 boxes splayed to offer vertical HF coverage of a usable size (3° per box being the choice you have to work with), means that the HF will likely not add at all, or add only minimally, so your array output is going to be maybe 132dB per side for 8 boxes.

Compare that to a pair of JBL SRX812p boxes.  Street prices are ~$2500 for a pair, and they are rated at 136dB from 48Hz - 20Khz -3dB.  They are self-amplified with FIR processing, weigh 60lbs, and sound fantastic.

This is what we're talking about here - the Seismic stuff has an advantage if people listen with their eyes, but if you actually care about sound quality and logistical savings, you can spend 1/3 of your money on better boxes supported by a pro manufacturer that will play louder, sound better, pack smaller, and setup faster than the array you have.

I'm not trying to be anything other than helpful here, but simply to educate you for purchasing your next system. 

[Tim McCulloch]

Clint, I wish you the best, and hope that you will get the quality and output that you desire. 

Just one point to ponder for future use:

You bought 16 boxes at $280, which totals $4500.  They are 16Ω boxes, so you can potentially run 8 per side for a 2Ω load to your amp, but two amps would be better.  Peavey IPR 7500 amps with DSP are $1100, so the boxes plus a pair of amps are going to be roughly $7500, not counting some flying mechanism.

From the spec sheets they have a peak SPL of 125dB.  Assuming perfect summation (which isn't realistic), a set of four boxes set at 0° would produce 137dB, and the HF will be like a laser beam.  8 boxes splayed to offer vertical HF coverage of a usable size (3° per box being the choice you have to work with), means that the HF will likely not add at all, or add only minimally, so your array output is going to be maybe 132dB per side for 8 boxes.

Compare that to a pair of JBL SRX812p boxes.  Street prices are ~$2500 for a pair, and they are rated at 136dB from 48Hz - 20Khz -3dB.  They are self-amplified with FIR processing, weigh 60lbs, and sound fantastic.

This is what we're talking about here - the Seismic stuff has an advantage if people listen with their eyes, but if you actually care about sound quality and logistical savings, you can spend 1/3 of your money on better boxes supported by a pro manufacturer that will play louder, sound better, pack smaller, and setup faster than the array you have.

I'm not trying to be anything other than helpful here, but simply to educate you for purchasing your next system.

Preach it, brother.

Ray A. is also spot on in his comments about Seismic's lack of support.  One would think an importer or manufacturer would have a vested interest in seeing that the end users have successful results.  This thing works best for folks that listen with their eyes....

Clint, you say you're in a very competitive market.  I can assure you that doesn't get better as you move up the food chain.  There will always be someone who will do your gig for less money, but from your post sounds like you're in a race to the bottom.  I hope that's not the case because it's incredibly hard to make money down there.

The reality is that anyone with genuine line array measurement chops and the experience to do it in situ costs four figures a day plus expenses.  Anything else is pretty much GuessVerke.  Do you feel lucky?

[ProSoundWeb Community]