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[Scott Slater]

Hello all,

I run a smallish PA system for outdoor events all summer long, and recently changed my tops and need to beef up the subs to better match.  The system was used primarily indoors, originally but most of my jobs lately are outdoor.

The events:
The size of events that I am usually playing are small parks, street events etc, that typically end up being half a football field sized areas with 750 - 1200 ish spectators.  The furthest back from the stages people tend to be is about 150 feet.  The stages are usually the semi-trailer flatbed types or similar.  Sometimes the event coordinators want all of the speakers up on the trailer too.  I like to put the subs on the ground when possible.

The PA:
I was running an entire JBL system but recently changed the tops to 2 QSC KLA-12s per side.  The subs are 4 JBL 718s powered by 4 XTi 4002s bridged (1 each).  I was considering buying 4 more 18" subs, but started looking into the Danley TH118s.  My van space is limited and I could get 4 more 18" subs in if needed, but the Danleys are looking better at this point both size-wise and in capability.  I have about a $7K to $8K budget to improve my subs, and was thinking about running 2 TH118s and ditching the JBLs altogether.  Would a pair of TH118s be a good match for the KLAs or would I be better off going with 8 or so KW181s or something else?

Another question is would the XTi 4002 (bridged) be a good match for a TH118 or perhaps the XTi 6002?  I have both of these available already and am looking at the SP2-4800 as a possibility.  The SP2-4800 was recommended by a local Danley rep.  If I can work with what I already own, that would save a few thousand.

I am looking for any advice from people who have experience with the Danleys etc. in an outdoor environment.  I am trying to break the evil cycle of buying stuff every season, and replacing it the next.  I'd like to stick with a speaker system for at least a few years...

-Scott


EDIT:  The events are typically Rock or Country bands 3 - 6 piece.

[Ivan Beaver]

We get reports all the time about people comparing a single TH118 to 2 2x18" subs (or 4 single 18" subs), and the TH118 winning or being equal-but smaller in size.

Regarding amps, the Danley EDA12K is more moeny-but could be a lot cheaper in the long run.

It is real stable at 2 ohms per side-so you could run 4 TH118s off of it (2 per channel).  It has a universal power supply-so it will run off of 120V or 240V.  At 120V it is limited to 3000/channel to keep from blowing standard breakers, but will deliver the full 6000/channel when run off of 208 or 240V.

There are no switches or anything to change-just plug it in and go.

This would allow for you to add some more subs later if you want.

A 4 ohm would be limited to 1 sub per channel-so if you expand, you will need another amp also.

However-it I was in your shoes-since you already have some amps-I would start with what you have (bridge 1 amp per cabinet) and see how well it works.

It may be just fine-so you don't have to spend any extra money.

If you aren't happy-THEN look at spending money on an amp.

But don't spend money if you don't have to.

Of course that is not what the salesmen want to hear-----------------

[Scott Slater]

We get reports all the time about people comparing a single TH118 to 2 2x18" subs (or 4 single 18" subs), and the TH118 winning or being equal-but smaller in size.

Thank you Ivan, I am about 95% certain that I am going to go with a pair of these to start.

With the TH118 is there an acoustic advantage to placing them side-by-side vs apart as with other subs?  I remember reading somewhere on a forum that this is not the case, and wanted to clear this up.

Thanks again.

-Scott

[Keith Broughton]

Thank you Ivan, I am about 95% certain that I am going to go with a pair of these to start.

With the TH118 is there an acoustic advantage to placing them side-by-side vs apart as with other subs?  I remember reading somewhere on a forum that this is not the case, and wanted to clear this up.

Thanks again.

-Scott

The "acoustic advantage" is that when they are together, there will be way less comb filtering and a much more even bass response in  the listening area.

[Rob Spence]

Replacing your 4 JBL 18" subs with 4 QSC 18" subs would only drain the wallet and provide little if any benifit. Also, with the KW181 (which I have and love) you are buying 4 more amps which you already have.

Sell the JBLs and buy a pair of Danleys. You might find a pair second hand. I have seen them in the marketplace.

Ivan's advise of using your existing amps first is spot on. You can always sell the 4 amps you have and buy what you need.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[John L Nobile]

The "acoustic advantage" is that when they are together, there will be way less comb filtering and a much more even bass response in  the listening area.

I've never measured this myself, but you should get 3 db more level as well when you group them side by each. Isn't that the same as doubling the watts?

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Replacing your 4 JBL 18" subs with 4 QSC 18" subs would only drain the wallet and provide little if any benifit. Also, with the KW181 (which I have and love) you are buying 4 more amps which you already have.

Sell the JBLs and buy a pair of Danleys. You might find a pair second hand. I have seen them in the marketplace.

Ivan's advise of using your existing amps first is spot on. You can always sell the 4 amps you have and buy what you need.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Yep.  Little direct radiating single 18" boxes are useful up to maybe 4 of them.  After that, it's time for bigger guns.  The difference between a typical single 18 box and a TH118 is 3:1 at least, and they'll take less truck space and power to get there.

[Scott Olewiler]

The "acoustic advantage" is that when they are together, there will be way less comb filtering and a much more even bass response in  the listening area.

You just have to decide which (2) audience members get the proper alignment delay.  Unless the subs are together on one side, then, I guess it's only one person. I think. 

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

You just have to decide which (2) audience members get the proper alignment delay.  Unless the subs are together on one side, then, I guess it's only one person. I think. 

It's going to interfere somewhere.  Either the sub is as close as possible to the mains meaning alignment with the rest of the PA is reasonable but you have two radiating sources in the sub band, or you put the subs together in the middle, and the subs are coherent, but are now impossible to align with the main PA.

I have tried both, and IMO it's much easier to get good coverage overall with the subs on the sides, unless you have a large number of sub boxes and can play with various arraying techniques.  Center subs tend to create a hotspot front and center, but seem to cause more room node issues indoors.

[Ivan Beaver]

Thank you Ivan, I am about 95% certain that I am going to go with a pair of these to start.

With the TH118 is there an acoustic advantage to placing them side-by-side vs apart as with other subs?  I remember reading somewhere on a forum that this is not the case, and wanted to clear this up.

Thanks again.

-Scott

The TH118 (like all tapped horns) is designed to properly by itself.  In other words not needing the additional horn loading that most horn subs need to get proper response.

Yes you can couple them together and they will add in output.

The question of whether to split them or put them together is a double edged sword, and there are multiple "correct" answers, and each with its own WRONG answer.  So the CORRECT answer is "it depends".

It is true that if you put them together in the middle you will not have the "cancellation fingers" that separated subs have.

HOWEVER-there is no way you can get a proper alignment to the mains-if they are on the sides of the stage-except in basically 2 listening areas.  Because each time you move you have changed the distance relationship between yourself and the subs and the mains.

ALSO it is impossible to get "even bass coverage", because the area in front of the subs WILL be louder than the rest of the room-no way around it.

If you separate the subs-it is pretty easy to get a good alignment to the mains-assuming the subs are near the mains.

Yes you WILL have finger lobes in the room (but you will ALSO get finger lobes once you put the subs in a room and even more when you add a ceiling)  WITH EITHER split or combined subs.

In many cases you can get a more "overall even coverage" (SPL wise) with split subs.  But there will be areas of cancellation.

This applies to ANY type sub by ANY manufacturer.

It is all a matter of compromises

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