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[Lee Buckalew]

Your point is well said and well taken.  I should have thought my question through better and removed the ambiguity.  Lesson learned.  I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

Rich,
Since you are looking at KW181's I am assuming, possibly incorrectly, that size and or weight matters here.
How large can you go?
With subs everything is a compromise of SPL, low frequency cut off, and physical size.

Do you need or want a pole mount on the sub cabinet?
What weight can you handle for these?

There are many more musical (accurate) subs out there than the KW181. 

For a bit more, new, than the KW181 you could get Danley TH112 or Martin WS18x.  The Danley is larger and heavier than the Martin and is not quite as high in output capability (although I have not tested them side by side).  The Martin is lighter in weight and has a pole mount, it also has built in casters but you can always use a caster board for subs without.
The Danley will handle less amplifier power than the Martin.

You may be able to find them used.
If you could get enough of a deal used and size and weight didn't matter you coud step it up another notch to the Danley TH212.  It would be hard to beat and the Martin WS218x would be another to consider.  Very different beasts so it depends on what you are looking to achieve.

Lee

[Ivan Beaver]

For a bit more, new, than the KW181 you could get Danley TH112 or Martin WS18x.  The Danley is larger and heavier than the Martin and is not quite as high in output capability (although I have not tested them side by side). 

The Danley TH112 was not intended to be a loud sub, but the "design criteria" was to go lower than standard subs and have a flat freq response.

That comes at a "price".  The "price" in this term is size (due to the lower cutoff freq) and lower sensitivity (again due to lower cutoff freq).

Everything is a matter of "tradeoffs" and before you can compare products-you have to make sure you are comparing the proper criteria

[Rich Rubel]

Rich,
Since you are looking at KW181's I am assuming, possibly incorrectly, that size and or weight matters here.
How large can you go?
With subs everything is a compromise of SPL, low frequency cut off, and physical size.

Do you need or want a pole mount on the sub cabinet?
What weight can you handle for these?

There are many more musical (accurate) subs out there than the KW181. 

For a bit more, new, than the KW181 you could get Danley TH112 or Martin WS18x.  The Danley is larger and heavier than the Martin and is not quite as high in output capability (although I have not tested them side by side).  The Martin is lighter in weight and has a pole mount, it also has built in casters but you can always use a caster board for subs without.
The Danley will handle less amplifier power than the Martin.

You may be able to find them used.
If you could get enough of a deal used and size and weight didn't matter you coud step it up another notch to the Danley TH212.  It would be hard to beat and the Martin WS218x would be another to consider.  Very different beasts so it depends on what you are looking to achieve.

Lee

Lee, I have been contemplating the questions around subs while re-reading all the posts in this sections again back through double digits pages.  I am stunned reading all of these posts again by how much I still don't know.  Intimidating indeed.  But in an effort to provide some useful information I hope I don't merely end up providing an overkill of more useless information!  But as they say, here goes;

Overview.  Performance in this instance refers to equaling the KW181 in dependability while exceeding them in Loudness, Moving air (perceived chest “thump”) and finally how low they go.  The units can weigh more and be bigger than the KW181 but they have to be transportable.  I’ve listed some weight and size limitations below.  If passive they would have to achieve these goals using the 3602’s I currently own (which I understand are not the best for subs).

Funds available for Sub– currently have approx. (+/- 10%) 2200 to spend. Which could be for just a single unit now with another to be added late summer.  If I stretched it could be 3400 for a pair now.

Pole mount for the tops nice but at the bottom of my list of importance

Size and Weight =  high end around 150lbs:  size = 4’ wide x 3.5’ Deep x 5’ tall – one should fit in the back of my Van.  I would install wheels and other things to help move.  The little covered trailer I use for the equipment has a ramp and a leftover winch from a jeep.

Most important aspects by ranking
1.   Cost (that’s what I have just now)
2.   Dependability
3.   Loudness
4.   Chest Feel (Thump)
5.   Low end
6.   Weight
7.   Size
8.   New or used
9.   Active or passive (no preference)

Horns vs direct firing.  No preference.  I haven’t been able to find a folded horn to listen to but from what I read they are intriguing.  I wish I could get to a sub shootout somewhere to hear for myself.  At present the differences to me are only theoretical.

Circumstances;  Mid-sixties, first band after deciding to take up bass 4 years ago.  We needed a real PA system and being the oldest and only empty nester I took the plunge

 Primary types of venues = small bars with max capacity 200.  Same maximum capacity for the corporate parties and weddings.  Very few outdoor events and there are some rental houses in the area I could use should I need to augment my usual set up.  I have been asked by three younger bands to run sound for them.  Maybe in a few years when I retire…………..

Planned future equipment upgrades – Retire K12’s to Monitors but I haven’t researched what I will replace them with.   The K12 have nice clarity so the upgrade will primarily to gain more loudness.   Top and subs will be both passive and active.  I don’t want to mix.  For this reason I am hoping to outclass the current K12’s in Loudness.

My knowledge base is weak but I am auditing a class in live sound at our local Community College.  I am augmenting that with articles from this forum, several books recommended here and a series of videos on Youtube by Dave Rat.

[chuck clark]

[quote author=Rich Rubel link=

Most important aspects by ranking
1.   Cost (that’s what I have just now)
2.   Dependability
3.   Loudness
4.   Chest Feel (Thump)
5.   Low end
6.   Weight
7.   Size
8.   New or used
9.   Active or passive (no preference)
[/quote]

oh boy, as a fellow mid-60's guy, you are opening a real can of worms, Rich.  Schlepping a ton or 2 of gear around is a sport for younger fellows unless you are of exceptionally sturdy stock!  With that in mind, I'm going to recommend you audition some Cerwin-Vega P 1800SW  powered subs.  Compact, under 90 lbs. each, and about as good performance as you will find within your price range.  I know a guy who is interested in your 3602's if the price is right.  I was going to suggest you shop around for some PRO quality used gear but most of that stuff is big and heavy, which , the longer you live, the more you will hate having to lug around! Lol
Have fun!
Chuck

[Lee Buckalew]

Lee, I have been contemplating the questions around subs while re-reading all the posts in this sections again back through double digits pages.  I am stunned reading all of these posts again by how much I still don't know.  Intimidating indeed.  But in an effort to provide some useful information I hope I don't merely end up providing an overkill of more useless information!  But as they say, here goes;

Overview.  Performance in this instance refers to equaling the KW181 in dependability while exceeding them in Loudness, Moving air (perceived chest “thump”) and finally how low they go.  The units can weigh more and be bigger than the KW181 but they have to be transportable.  I’ve listed some weight and size limitations below.  If passive they would have to achieve these goals using the 3602’s I currently own (which I understand are not the best for subs).

Funds available for Sub– currently have approx. (+/- 10%) 2200 to spend. Which could be for just a single unit now with another to be added late summer.  If I stretched it could be 3400 for a pair now.

Pole mount for the tops nice but at the bottom of my list of importance

Size and Weight =  high end around 150lbs:  size = 4’ wide x 3.5’ Deep x 5’ tall – one should fit in the back of my Van.  I would install wheels and other things to help move.  The little covered trailer I use for the equipment has a ramp and a leftover winch from a jeep.

Most important aspects by ranking
1.   Cost (that’s what I have just now)
2.   Dependability
3.   Loudness
4.   Chest Feel (Thump)
5.   Low end
6.   Weight
7.   Size
8.   New or used
9.   Active or passive (no preference)

Horns vs direct firing.  No preference.  I haven’t been able to find a folded horn to listen to but from what I read they are intriguing.  I wish I could get to a sub shootout somewhere to hear for myself.  At present the differences to me are only theoretical.

Circumstances;  Mid-sixties, first band after deciding to take up bass 4 years ago.  We needed a real PA system and being the oldest and only empty nester I took the plunge

 Primary types of venues = small bars with max capacity 200.  Same maximum capacity for the corporate parties and weddings.  Very few outdoor events and there are some rental houses in the area I could use should I need to augment my usual set up.  I have been asked by three younger bands to run sound for them.  Maybe in a few years when I retire…………..

Planned future equipment upgrades – Retire K12’s to Monitors but I haven’t researched what I will replace them with.   The K12 have nice clarity so the upgrade will primarily to gain more loudness.   Top and subs will be both passive and active.  I don’t want to mix.  For this reason I am hoping to outclass the current K12’s in Loudness.

My knowledge base is weak but I am auditing a class in live sound at our local Community College.  I am augmenting that with articles from this forum, several books recommended here and a series of videos on Youtube by Dave Rat.

Would you consider a single sub cabinet that was low profile and could lay flat centered between your main speakers?
A Danley TH212 would fit many of you requirements.  It is heavier than you'd like (but it has casters).  It may be a little more money than you'd like but you could hunt for a used one.

If it had to be a pair that fits many of your requirements then I really like the Martin WS18X.  A pair would be a bit over your budget when new but used could fit it nicely.  They are quite compact for 18's, they will get lower and louder than the QSC's, etc.

Lee

[Rob Spence]

Just my opinion but I for these things in subs
Good design
Good components
Good weight
Good efficiency
Horn loaded
Unfortunately none of these add up to good price.
If I was in your shoes I'd get a TH 118. The TH 12 would be good too but the 118 would give you the option to add more tops.

Well, I gotta pick at this... What is good?
For my club, good weight would be so heavy no one will steal em? :-)
What is a good design?
Etc


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[John L Nobile]

Well, I gotta pick at this... What is good?
For my club, good weight would be so heavy no one will steal em? :-)
What is a good design?
Etc


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Good weight? Something with good quality plywood. Well braced. It all adds weight. Never heard a light sub sound good.
Good design? I suppose that's subjective but just putting a speaker in a box where the criteria is how well it packs in a truck just doesn't sit well with me. But then again, I don't tour. I lean towards horn loaded boxes and to get them to sound right you need a "good design." I also think efficiency is important. Less subs/amps for the same SPL.

[Ivan Beaver]

I suppose that's subjective but just putting a speaker in a box where the criteria is how well it packs in a truck just doesn't sit well with me.

I find the term "truck pack" to be quite amusing.

YES there are "standard" dimensions (22.5-30-45-60"), what modern truck do they fit in?

Truck widths vary a good bit.

Does that dimension include covers?  If it does, then some people will "complain" that the dimension is not "truck pack".

There are a number of variables, but some people like to try to "impress" others by pointing out that something is not "truck pack".

It only shows how little they actually know or understand what they are saying.

Sorry to be blunt-but the truth is the truth--------

[Tim McCulloch]

I find the term "truck pack" to be quite amusing.

YES there are "standard" dimensions (22.5-30-45-60"), what modern truck do they fit in?

Truck widths vary a good bit.

Does that dimension include covers?  If it does, then some people will "complain" that the dimension is not "truck pack".

There are a number of variables, but some people like to try to "impress" others by pointing out that something is not "truck pack".

It only shows how little they actually know or understand what they are saying.

Sorry to be blunt-but the truth is the truth--------

We've had this discussion a couple of times.  In the USA common straight van body trucks are nominally 90", 98", or in some rare instances, 102-ish.  I say "nominally" because the addition of "fork truck packages", tie-off rails and other interior treatments can reduce the useable width.

For the most part, though, things that are 22.5" by 30" or multiples thereof tend to be truck pack friendly.  Others not so much.  YMMV, etc.

[Tim Padrick]

IMHO, Chest Thump = junk.  It should get you in the gut, and the rest of the body.  I can get chest thump listening to talk radio on the four 4" speakers in my old Dodge Caravan :-)

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