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[Rich Rubel]

I want to upgrade the outdated Yamaha subs in the PA system I have for our band.  I currently use K12 Tops so the obvious choice would be KW181 Subs.  However I also have a pair of QSC PLX 3602 amps and a Driverack PA2 I used with the old subs.  The KW181 were going to run about 2200 for the pair and I was wondering if there was a pair of passive subs (new or used) at that same price that would outperform the KW181 using the 3602.  Although it warrants consideration, weight is not a deal breaker.  Any recommendations?

[Mac Kerr]

I want to upgrade the outdated Yamaha subs in the PA system I have for our band.  I currently use K12 Tops so the obvious choice would be KW181 Subs.  However I also have a pair of QSC PLX 3602 amps and a Driverack PA2 I used with the old subs.  The KW181 were going to run about 2200 for the pair and I was wondering if there was a pair of passive subs (new or used) at that same price that would outperform the KW181 using the 3602.  Although it warrants consideration, weight is not a deal breaker.  Any recommendations?

Have you read any of the posts in the forum? This question constitutes at least half the posts. You can learn a lot by reading what already exists before asking specific questions.

Mac

[Rich Rubel]

Have you read any of the posts in the forum? This question constitutes at least half the posts. You can learn a lot by reading what already exists before asking specific questions.

Mac

Yes I have Mac.  I have been researching here for about four months.  I have read the results of many of the sub shoot outs.  Read posts about the Growlers and much of what Jeff at JTR had to say about his products.  Researched Danley tapped horns here and many other posts contrasting the KW181's vs the JBL PRX 718xtr or VRZ vs the Yorkville ps15s (my current finalists). I am forced to humbly admit that it appears I have failed to comprehend all that I read.  Still your reply illustrates a key aspect of Ockham's Razor; if after all this research I am still fuzzy on the contrasts, the bag the folder horns and go with my original choice.   

Sorry for the Redundancy - it wasn't my intention to annoy anyone but sometime it just works out that way.

[Lee Buckalew]

Yes I have Mac.  I have been researching here for about four months.  I have read the results of many of the sub shoot outs.  Read posts about the Growlers and much of what Jeff at JTR had to say about his products.  Researched Danley tapped horns here and many other posts contrasting the KW181's vs the JBL PRX 718xtr or VRZ vs the Yorkville ps15s (my current finalists). I am forced to humbly admit that it appears I have failed to comprehend all that I read.  Still your reply illustrates a key aspect of Ockham's Razor; if after all this research I am still fuzzy on the contrasts, the bag the folder horns and go with my original choice.   

Sorry for the Redundancy - it wasn't my intention to annoy anyone but sometime it just works out that way.

Rich,
The annoyance most likely (it does in my case, I can't speak for Mac) comes from the failure to ask any specific questions.  If I asked what is the best performing automobile I couldn't get a single answer or even a small family of answers.  I have not defined "performing".  Top speed, cornering, seating capacity, tow rating, etc., etc.

So...please define "outperforming a KW181".
Does it need to extend lower in frequency?
Does it need to get louder?
If you want both lower and louder which one is more important?
Does it need to be the same size or smaller or can it be larger?
How large?
Does it need a pole mount?
Etc., etc.

Lee

[Ivan Beaver]

So...please define "outperforming a KW181".
Does it need to extend lower in frequency?
Does it need to get louder?
If you want both lower and louder which one is more important?
Does it need to be the same size or smaller or can it be larger?
How large?
Does it need a pole mount?
Etc., etc.

Lee

And to add

Does price matter?

Until the "target" is defined-the term "outperforms" can be any number of things.

It is like asking about something that will "outperform" a particular car

Does that mean-Fuel economy-towing capacity-zero to 60-top speed-number of passengers-distance before empty and so forth----------

Any complex question is easily answered by a simple, easy to understand- WRONG answer.

[Rich Rubel]

Rich,
The annoyance most likely (it does in my case, I can't speak for Mac) comes from the failure to ask any specific questions.  If I asked what is the best performing automobile I couldn't get a single answer or even a small family of answers.  I have not defined "performing".  Top speed, cornering, seating capacity, tow rating, etc., etc.

So...please define "outperforming a KW181".
Does it need to extend lower in frequency?
Does it need to get louder?
If you want both lower and louder which one is more important?
Does it need to be the same size or smaller or can it be larger?
How large?
Does it need a pole mount?
Etc., etc.

Lee

Your point is well said and well taken.  I should have thought my question through better and removed the ambiguity.  Lesson learned.  I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

[John L Nobile]

Just my opinion but I for these things in subs
Good design
Good components
Good weight
Good efficiency
Horn loaded
Unfortunately none of these add up to good price.
If I was in your shoes I'd get a TH 118. The TH 12 would be good too but the 118 would give you the option to add more tops.

[Lee Buckalew]

Your point is well said and well taken.  I should have thought my question through better and removed the ambiguity.  Lesson learned.  I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

So....
These are sound people, they all have opinions advice and many are quite willing to express them :-)

Define a bit more what you are looking to "improve" over the KW181 and I'm sure you'll get some advice.

Lee

[Ivan Beaver]

Your point is well said and well taken.  I should have thought my question through better and removed the ambiguity.  Lesson learned.  I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

I think one of the most important "aspects" of the forums is not only to help people-but to help them THINK and get a better understanding of what and how to ask.

AND to understand what is important and what to look for when comparing products.

[chuck clark]

you might try some newer Yamaha Club V 218's.  I used to not care for them but I recently mixed a band at a funky little 250 seat club (w/ excellent seafood) and was told the new ones were "improved"  Yeah, sure, whatever, I thought.  Apparently either the bracing or the drivers or both have been upgraded because I was surprised how decent the the "thump" was. This was live with B=52 mic and a QSC GX-7 amp.  I had to cross-over low-about 80- and do some real eq tweaking including on the 1/3 oct eq. but results acheived were quite happy for all, including me, and I'm a grumpy old soundmad er I mean soundman. Best of luck to ya'
Chuck

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