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Author Topic: D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST  (Read 6451 times)

Sebastian Vidales

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D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST
« on: February 10, 2015, 10:51:39 pm »

Hi Everyone,

A vendor for a festival I'm working with has just quoted a system for a stage (3000 people approx) consisting of 12 D&B t-series cabinets per side.  For Subs they offer 12 Jsub and 4 T subs.

My concern is if this system will deliver  for this type of music (indy rock and edm dj´s). I have heard this system for small venues and corporate shows mostly word oriented.
Has anyone any insight on this?

Best regards

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Jens Droessler

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Re: D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 11:25:31 pm »

Like bringing a bent knife to a gunfight. Subs will be enough for rock, but could be on the edge for EDM at 'fun' SPLs. The 12 T series modules per side won't be fun for either music. You want to do jazz, background music, speech or a kids show for 3000, go with the 12 T series per side, it will work. But rock and EDM with some SPL and some impact? Nope. If you want d&b, go with 10 to 12 V series per side. And get a sys tech who knows what he's doing. People specing T series for these kinds of event aren't on that list in my book.
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brian maddox

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Re: D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2015, 11:21:58 am »

Like bringing a bent knife to a gunfight. Subs will be enough for rock, but could be on the edge for EDM at 'fun' SPLs. The 12 T series modules per side won't be fun for either music. You want to do jazz, background music, speech or a kids show for 3000, go with the 12 T series per side, it will work. But rock and EDM with some SPL and some impact? Nope. If you want d&b, go with 10 to 12 V series per side. And get a sys tech who knows what he's doing. People specing T series for these kinds of event aren't on that list in my book.

Agreed.  Sounds like they spec'd either what they owned or what they had left in the shop for that weekend.

V would work.  Q would work.  And of course J would work. 

T is just a bit Too Tiny [see what i did there?].
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"It feels wrong to be in the audience.  And it's too peopley!" - Steve Smith

brian maddox
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Philipp Diesenreiter

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Re: D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2015, 06:38:22 pm »

You could try the d&b array calc software. If you have some experience with such software it is quite easy to do at least a rough sketch of the festival ground and see what level you can achieve with the speced PA

http://www.dbaudio.com/de/systeme/details/arraycalc.html
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Sebastian Vidales

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Re: D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2015, 09:35:16 pm »

I've seen the arraycalc file they sent me, but prediction an always look nice and in my humble opinion can't give you a real insight on the kind of program you´re going to use.

Anyways, the vendor now specified 6 Q1 + 2 Q7 per side, along with the 12 J-subs: reading d&b manuals the sub to top ratio should be 2:3 and a J-Sub Replaces 3  Q subs. Following this directive there would be too much Subs in the system. 

I'm thinking abut asking for at least 10 boxes per side, following this directive I should use 6 J-Subs Maximum.

Any comments?
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brian maddox

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Re: D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 09:42:08 pm »

I've seen the arraycalc file they sent me, but prediction an always look nice and in my humble opinion can't give you a real insight on the kind of program you´re going to use.

Anyways, the vendor now specified 6 Q1 + 2 Q7 per side, along with the 12 J-subs: reading d&b manuals the sub to top ratio should be 2:3 and a J-Sub Replaces 3  Q subs. Following this directive there would be too much Subs in the system. 

I'm thinking abut asking for at least 10 boxes per side, following this directive I should use 6 J-Subs Maximum.

Any comments?

IME, there is really no such thing as too much subs.  especially when you ay those magic letters EDM.  you can always turn them down...  [which is totally not gonna happen i suspect]

Essentially 8 Q boxes a side for that size crowd with a very healthy complement of subs will easily do the EDM and i would be comfortable with it for the band stuff as well.   If you can push it up to more boxes it won't hurt you, but that number of Q's will make a LOT of noise....

i sure wouldn't cut back on the subs AND increase the tops.  Especially not for EDM.
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"It feels wrong to be in the audience.  And it's too peopley!" - Steve Smith

brian maddox
bdmaudio@gmail.com

'...do not trifle with the affairs of dragons...

       ....for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup...'

Jens Droessler

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Re: D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 09:51:38 pm »

I'd consider 8 Q per side to be not enough for a crowd of 3000, especially since you gonna need some 'balls' in the lowmids for EDM to be fun. Those balls you will only get to all (or at least most) of the audience by having an array as long as possible, even if you wouldn't need the full power (which you probably will need anyway).
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Guy Graham

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Re: D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 10:50:10 pm »

I'd consider 8 Q per side to be not enough for a crowd of 3000, especially since you gonna need some 'balls' in the lowmids for EDM to be fun. Those balls you will only get to all (or at least most) of the audience by having an array as long as possible, even if you wouldn't need the full power (which you probably will need anyway).

8 Q1/side is going to be far, far better for this purpose than the 12 Ts originally proposed.

Also I've never considered d&b Q series to be lacking "balls" in any area, assuming enough rig for the gig. In fact I think Q boxes generally have more "balls" than similar sized boxes - including an equivalent line of V series.

I'd expect the 12 J subs to be fine for bass heavy music like EDM in such circumstances - though it depends on how tightly packed or spread out those 3000 people are!
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Jelmer de Jong

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Re: D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2015, 08:16:36 am »

I'd consider 8 Q per side to be not enough for a crowd of 3000, especially since you gonna need some 'balls' in the lowmids for EDM to be fun. Those balls you will only get to all (or at least most) of the audience by having an array as long as possible, even if you wouldn't need the full power (which you probably will need anyway).
Me too. Whenever someone yells 3000 people with this kind of music (in a normal rectangle room) I immediately think of 12 'mid-size' boxes per side plus subs. Something like Vertec 4888/V20, Kudo/K2, E12 or J-series if you want to use D&B. T, Q, Kara or other speakers you can lift with one hand aren't going to cut it unless you reinforce them with extra low-mid boxes flown right behind them. But at that point its probably easier to just use bigger main boxes.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2015, 11:12:21 am »

IME, there is really no such thing as too much subs.  especially when you ay those magic letters EDM.  you can always turn them down...  [which is totally not gonna happen i suspect]


i sure wouldn't cut back on the subs AND increase the tops.  Especially not for EDM.
And people should also consider the following.

Wehn going outside- you need to at least DOUBLE the number of subs-4 times is a good goal, vs inside.  You don't have the benefit of the room to help out the low end level (room gain).

A good goal for an EDM system (done the way they want it) is the subs should be able to "outrun" the tops by 25-30dB.

I know this sounds excessive-but that is what my experience has show-and I have measured.  15-20dB should be the MINIMUM the subs should be able to outrun the tops.

Tight limiters are your friend.

A "good target" is around 128ish dB C weighted continuous at about 100-150'.  This means the system should be able to do peaks about 10dB above that.

That means A LOT of subbage. 

Of course budget is always an issue and what the "people in charge" actually expect.  So actual results will vary.

I like to limit all of my cabinets at 1/2 of continuous power when doing this type of material.  It can get REAL abusive on the low end and sometimes the top end.

I have heard some acts that do this "hard screeching" type top end that can KILL HF drivers real quick.

I think it is like the "hot-cold trick" with your body.

You hit the audience with harsh top end for a little bit, then "sooooth itout" with the deep bass-----------.
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Jelmer de Jong

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Re: D&B T10, FOR ROCK AND ELECTRONIC STAGE AT FEST
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2015, 04:11:59 am »


I have heard some acts that do this "hard screeching" type top end that can KILL HF drivers real quick.
Thats why I like a dynamic EQ or de-esser on the outputs of a DJ mixer. It hacks away al those stupid and ear bleeding effects.
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