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Author Topic: High School Football Stadium Audio System  (Read 18997 times)

Keith Broughton

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Re: High School Football Stadium Audio System
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2015, 01:17:18 pm »

is that budget just for the speakers-or the speakers-amps-processing-install-warranty-design etc?

Knowing what is expected for a particular budget is real helpful in the initial design.
Ivan...you are always cluttering up hopeful wishes with reality checks    ;D ;D
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: High School Football Stadium Audio System
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2015, 04:04:46 pm »

Ivan...you are always cluttering up hopeful wishes with reality checks    ;D ;D
Yeah-reality sux, but sooner or later people are going to be faced with it.

The speakers don't "put themselves in and hook up properly to the amps and the DSP is not self aligning---------

And who is going to take care of the troubleshooting/problems when they arise?  If gear breaks-who is going to deal with getting it fixed?

Yes the gear is important-and it can make a difference-but often it is the "boring things" that make a successful install and can drive the costs up MUCH more than people think.

But that is not as "sexy" as cool speakers.

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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Ivan Beaver

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Re: High School Football Stadium Audio System
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2015, 04:13:14 pm »

I've been commissioned to purchase the speakers that will be mounted on our new press box at our high school football stadium,
Depending on the height of the pressbox, the choice of speaker can make QUITE a bit of difference.

ESPECIALLY to the "expensive seats" that are typically in front of the press box.

If it is not very high-then you BETTER make SURE you use LARGE horns (especially if trying to "shoot the other side") to help reduce the levels in those seats.

Speakers with small horns will get REAL LOUD REAL QUICK on those seats-and typically those people are not the ones that want it loud-especially the music.

So the DESIGN needs to be so that the levels are accounted for within the pattern (and SPL spillage) of the speakers.

If the press box is pretty high above the seats (say 20 or 30' or so) then spillage is not as much of an issue.  That darn "Inversquare  law thing".

Hence the reason for a DESIGN-rather than just "choosing some speakers" and "hoping" it will work.

A system that worked great for a "typical stadium of the same size" could not work well for a stadium that has different mounting places.

One size does not fit all-hence the reason to have specific details.

It is also not the number of people, but where the people are located in relation to the speakers.

Yes there are a lot of "similarities" in football stadiums-but there are ALSO a lot of differences, that need to be addressed by the DESIGNER.
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Ivan Beaver
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: High School Football Stadium Audio System
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2015, 04:29:46 pm »

I haven't been been given a budget but I'm trying to stay around $5000 but there is a possibility it could sway upward of $10,000.
Back when I was doing installs (over 10yrs ago) a "typical starting system" for a high school stadium was $15-20K.

This would get you a 6 channel or so mixer-ONE wireless mic-a CD/cassettte playback, announcer mic and a speaker system (with DSP/amps/rack etc) and be installed with warranty.

This was a STARTING number and could go up or down-depending on a number of factors-such as how hard it would be to install the speakers-cable runs etc.

These systems did not have subs-but would get much louder than what you have proposed.

We have some high schools around here that spend 30K or more on JUST the  MAIN speaker system-no amps-no processing-no install labor etc.

It all depends on what the expectations of the customer are.

Some are higher than others.

Don't let them think they are getting one thing and then deliver something else.  That does not make for a happy customer.
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Ivan Beaver
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PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Keith Broughton

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Re: High School Football Stadium Audio System
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2015, 04:45:48 pm »

Quote
often it is the "boring things" that make a successful install and can drive the costs up MUCH more than people think.
Ain't that the truth!
I have been asked to do "economy" installs and won't touch them.
More problems than it's worth.
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Connor Long

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Re: High School Football Stadium Audio System
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2015, 11:31:05 am »

Sorry for the confusion. The price I included was for speakers only. I attached a picture of the visitor stand from the press box, it's only about 30 feet above the lowest seat in the bleachers. The home stands run from each 17 yard line and are about 7 rows high. It's really not a big stadium at all.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: High School Football Stadium Audio System
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2015, 12:56:23 pm »

Sorry for the confusion. The price I included was for speakers only. I attached a picture of the visitor stand from the press box, it's only about 30 feet above the lowest seat in the bleachers. The home stands run from each 17 yard line and are about 7 rows high. It's really not a big stadium at all.
If you are going to try and "shoot" the far side from the home side-you first need to do some figuring as to how loud the speakers need to be.

Just a few items for "consideration"

"Assuming a "throw" of 200' to the visitor bleachers, that would be a 36dB loss.

Consider that the "average" level for speech is about 15dB (10dB highly compressed) below the peak levels.

Consider that "average" crowd levels are in the 90-100dB dB range.

A "goal" for a stadium sound system is typically 10dB above the crowd levels.  But many can't do that.

A "standard goal" for large stadiums is 105dB A at the furthest seats. 

So let's say you are happy with 95dB.  Let's do a little "math"

Take the 95dB level-add 10dB (I am going on the "compressed side" for average/peak ratio and add 36dB loss over distance.

You have 141dB.  This needs to be a minimum goal for the maximum level of the loudspeaker facing the visitors.  It could easily be 10dB higher if money was there.

And that is how you "start" to do some design.  Setting different parameters/expectations etc.

GUESSING-or "liking a particular product" without knowing if it will do the job or not is NOT design and can often lead to a bad install with the customer asking what is wrong and why it does not work.

Of course the expected levels may not be as high as what I have listed (so lower output speakers might work)-but without knowing what IS expected-you cannot begin to suggest any equipment.

One of the biggest things that people often overlook when "designing" sound systems is what "damage" a particular loudspeaker is doing to OTHER areas than the intended ones.

Ie-if it does not have pattern control-then it is simply "spraying" sound everywhere.

ANd by "pattern control"-I do not mean the simple numbers on the spec sheet.  I mean "how LOW does that pattern actually extend in freq?"  In many cases these days-the rated pattern in only for the top couple of octaves at best.  And consider that the top 2 octaves (above 4K or so) are simply not going to make it to far seats due to air absorption.  Unless there are some EXTREME HF levels involved.

Consider that in larger stadiums from and endzone scoreboard-the air absorption losses can be 50dB ON TOP OF the distance losses, which can be another 45-50dB.

That is HARD to overcome.

So what sounds good and works well in a 80' throw may not work at all in longer outdoor situations.

I am just trying to help you consider what you might be up against.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: High School Football Stadium Audio System
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2015, 01:29:44 pm »

If you are going to try and "shoot" the far side from the home side-you first need to do some figuring as to how loud the speakers need to be.

Just a few items for "consideration"

"Assuming a "throw" of 200' to the visitor bleachers, that would be a 36dB loss.

Consider that the "average" level for speech is about 15dB (10dB highly compressed) below the peak levels.

Consider that "average" crowd levels are in the 90-100dB dB range.

A "goal" for a stadium sound system is typically 10dB above the crowd levels.  But many can't do that.

A "standard goal" for large stadiums is 105dB A at the furthest seats. 

So let's say you are happy with 95dB.  Let's do a little "math"

Take the 95dB level-add 10dB (I am going on the "compressed side" for average/peak ratio and add 36dB loss over distance.

You have 141dB.  This needs to be a minimum goal for the maximum level of the loudspeaker facing the visitors.  It could easily be 10dB higher if money was there.

And that is how you "start" to do some design.  Setting different parameters/expectations etc.

GUESSING-or "liking a particular product" without knowing if it will do the job or not is NOT design and can often lead to a bad install with the customer asking what is wrong and why it does not work.

Of course the expected levels may not be as high as what I have listed (so lower output speakers might work)-but without knowing what IS expected-you cannot begin to suggest any equipment.

One of the biggest things that people often overlook when "designing" sound systems is what "damage" a particular loudspeaker is doing to OTHER areas than the intended ones.

Ie-if it does not have pattern control-then it is simply "spraying" sound everywhere.

ANd by "pattern control"-I do not mean the simple numbers on the spec sheet.  I mean "how LOW does that pattern actually extend in freq?"  In many cases these days-the rated pattern in only for the top couple of octaves at best.  And consider that the top 2 octaves (above 4K or so) are simply not going to make it to far seats due to air absorption.  Unless there are some EXTREME HF levels involved.

Consider that in larger stadiums from and endzone scoreboard-the air absorption losses can be 50dB ON TOP OF the distance losses, which can be another 45-50dB.

That is HARD to overcome.

So what sounds good and works well in a 80' throw may not work at all in longer outdoor situations.

I am just trying to help you consider what you might be up against.

All good points but...also consider that for most schools the visitors bleachers don't matter as long as something can be heard (notice I did not say understood).
What we often end up doing is covering the near bleachers (home) from the press box or a combination of PB and nearby light poles.  Long throw speakers are then used on the light poles nearest the PB to throw across the field.  Of course this is in situations where the home and visitor bleachers do not need to be covered identically.  In fact most of the time the coverage from the the light poles works well for various on field practices, cheerleading, etc. but is marginal for the visitor bleachers yet the school is happy with it and they have met their budget.

Edit add- Don't forget that you may also need to factor in lightning suppression for all lines going from outside the press box to inside depending on your local inspectors requirements and the NFPA/NEC guidelines.

Lee
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 05:10:53 pm by Lee Buckalew »
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: High School Football Stadium Audio System
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2015, 03:27:18 pm »

I was involved with an install of a HS football stadium sound system. What they did with this system was the main bleachers had speakers on polls rather high aiming down towards the home bleachers, with some smaller speakers on the press box as fills. For the visitor section they had some speakers behind them on poles aiming down towards their bleachers. The music playback only goes to the home bleachers and the speaking goes to both. They trenched and buried pipe around the outer edge of the field and ran heavy-duty speaker cable in there. It works great, you arenít melting people on the home bleachers to get to the other side of the field and since it isnít too loud on either side it doesnít carry enough to be a problem. There is a little bit of delay used on the away side. The one reason for this configuration was to try and not disturb the neighbors. 

As far as weather proof I think that is a bit misleading. They might be weather resistant but still take a beating out in the elements. And it all depends on exactly where you are talking about. I am in the Northeast and have seen stuff disintegrate outside. If it is near saltwater then the life of any thing is greatly reduced. And then any little nook or cranny the bugs like to make a home in it, especially wasps. 
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Connor Long

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Re: High School Football Stadium Audio System
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2015, 04:44:23 pm »

Dang, so much information in such a small amount of time.

To the people who did do these type of installs, what speakers were used?
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Re: High School Football Stadium Audio System
¬ę Reply #19 on: February 08, 2015, 04:44:23 pm ¬Ľ


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