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[Rob Gow]

FWIW -- KUI Audio.
www.kuiaudio.com

Steve Kuithe has put together some interesting consoles around SAC using touch screens and motorized faders (using COTS components). He's currently in the process of developing a SAC-specified hardware control surface.

As for me, I'm using a Behringer BCR-2000 unit to control EQ, dynamics, auxes, and stuff like that; I'm in the process of getting a set of Mackie MCU units for the main faders.  If I were doing rodeo and other dirty outdoor events, I think I'd use Behringer BCF-2000 units for the faders -- they're disposable enough.

There's a couple of suggestions for you.

Cheers,
Randy Hyde

Pics?


Total cost of what you have?

Number of inputs?

[Justice C. Bigler]

FWIW -- KUI Audio.
www.kuiaudio.com

Yeah, that same tiny, undetailed pic with no further information is on the SAC website as well. From what I can see, it looks like his "console" is four of those Behringer fader units built into a fancy looking plywood case.

That's my real problem with SAC, they make all these claims about what their system can do, and how you can use any hardware you want, but the fact of the matter is, there's no "console control surface" on the market that they can connect to their software and have it be a full featured console, and work the way we are used to working. Those Behringer and Mackie fader units are home studio level gear. And by the time you up the ante to something like a Mackie Digital 8 Bus, or Avid C|24, you are already in real sound console price land anyway.

[Mark Sexton]

We're speaking festival, large clubs, rodeos, coporate, fairs, etc... here for our application.

Options for purchase: Soundcraft SI2, Yamaha M7 - CL, Allen & Heath I-Live T 112, Yamaha LS 9, Soundcraft SI Compact 32, Presonus Studio Live 24

Options I'm weighing? Durabilty, ease of operation, Apps for Mons to be run from FOH but can be tuned from stage and naturally sound quality.

Thank you for your input.

If you're going for overall acceptability, go with an M7CL, everyone knows how to use it. It's durable, easy to use, has the iPad app, and while it's not the best sounding desk ever it's of acceptable quality for most applications.

If you want to put sound quality first, I would look at the Digico SD9. It's in the same price range, though on the high side and it's a great little console.

[George Dougherty]

Yeah, that same tiny, undetailed pic with no further information is on the SAC website as well. From what I can see, it looks like his "console" is four of those Behringer fader units built into a fancy looking plywood case.

It is, but it works well and it didn't add $10K to the cost of his rig.

That's my real problem with SAC, they make all these claims about what their system can do, and how you can use any hardware you want, but the fact of the matter is, there's no "console control surface" on the market that they can connect to their software and have it be a full featured console, and work the way we are used to working. Those Behringer and Mackie fader units are home studio level gear. And by the time you up the ante to something like a Mackie Digital 8 Bus, or Avid C|24, you are already in real sound console price land anyway.

Randy covered that in his earlier post.  It's not for everyone and it doesn't work exactly like you're used to.  It can get close with off the shelf hardware, but that's not the developer's intent and there are plenty of users that have effectively made the transition to SAC's method of operation.  SAC's goal is not to duplicate what's been done, it's to create a whole new way of doing things.  Some can make the switch, others can't.  Some like Randy are slowly adapting it to how they want to work and the community is better for it as well.

I fly with a 24 channel rig in a 6 space rack that's hosted and controlled by a pair of laptops in a backpack.  I don't carry a control surface of any kind because it ties me down to one location and requires I pull power to it.  I mix monitors onstage from the remote then go find a spot in the house where I can hear well and mix the house from it as well.  I've spent enough time with the UI that I can effectively manage a 14 person, 16 piece band from a laptop keyboard and mouse.  For festival type gigs I work with a few channels of motorized faders and bank switch as necessary.  The mouse is all I've needed for channel control with the UI layout and workflow I use.  Others like Randy prefer knobs.  I prefer not to spend money on things that I've found I can personally live without.  That's the real beauty of the system.  I don't have to buy thousands of dollars of physical hardware to control the system but it works and sounds just as good for me as for those who have spent that money.

[Randall Hyde]

Pics?

Of what?
Here are some pics of the gig I did at the City of Riverside's Festival of Lights last December. I've added a much of control surfaces since then (we used FOL to get used to the mouse interface of SAC, so I explicitly avoided the control surfaces for that show).

Total cost of what you have?

My particular system is current running about $5,000. It will easily be $10,000 to $15,000 when I'm done with it. (Mackie MCU+X surfaces are about $800 each, I'll need four of them).
Still to go:
Four more Focusrite preamps (about $550-$600 ea).
Four control surfaces for FOH (about $800 ea)
Four more control surfaces for monitors (BCF2000 - about $175 ea)
Some sort of custom case ($?)
Another RME RayDat board ($800)
HP TouchSmart all-in-one touchscreen computer for FOH (currently running a small box, but the cable issues are problematic).

Number of inputs?

Current, I have 32 + 2 (coax digital for CD players). My goal is to have it up to 64 before the end of this year.  Most jobs I do require (far) less than 32 channels but I do a lot of festival-style shows and having the extra inputs is useful for such events.

My current SAC setup is here:
http://homepage.mac.com/randyhyde/we.../SACSetup.html

[Randall Hyde]

Yeah, that same tiny, undetailed pic with no further information is on the SAC website as well. From what I can see, it looks like his "console" is four of those Behringer fader units built into a fancy looking plywood case.

Probably the thing that is not apparent from the picture are the four touchscreen monitors.

That's my real problem with SAC, they make all these claims about what their system can do, and how you can use any hardware you want, but the fact of the matter is, there's no "console control surface" on the market that they can connect to their software and have it be a full featured console, and work the way we are used to working.

Yes, if you insist on "working the way you are used to working" you're going to have problems with SAC. I certainly have. Fortunately, my day job is software engineering. So I'm actually capable of writing my own software to control SAC. For example, I wrote a little MIDI driver to take a Behringer BCR-2000 and give me almost complete control over the SAC wide mixer view. Granted, it's Behringer, but the unit is fairly solid and at it's price point I can take several with me when one inevitably breaks. It's not in the audio chain, and if it does die during a show it's use is optional, so I don't really rely upon it. It just allows me to mix things the way I always have.

Granted, most people in this business aren't software developers. But that's one thing cool about SAC that does *not* apply very well to the hardware consoles -- third party support.  For example, you can download my little BCR-2000 app if you want to use that on your SAC console.

Those Behringer and Mackie fader units are home studio level gear. And by the time you up the ante to something like a Mackie Digital 8 Bus, or Avid C|24, you are already in real sound console price land anyway.

You might want to consider the Mixed Logic M24 then. Bob Lentini has volunteered to write the drivers for it if someone would loan him one for a couple of weeks. That's certainly out of the league of a "home recording" unit (given that it attaches to $500,000 systems).  BTW, it only costs $2,800.

I figure my console is going to cost $15,000 by the time I'm done putting it together. So I'm already up into (low end) console price land. Gee, this isn't about getting the cheapest possible console out there. The benefits of SAC are it's modularity (I can start with a $4,000 system and add on to it as time, money, and effort allow), flexibility (I get to choose the quality of the components, the number of components, and the interface between the components). You get to do very little of that with a hardware console.

SAC is not for everyone. If you don't have the DIY mentality, SAC isn't quite "prime-time" ready for you yet. If you've got to deal with riders from national "A" acts, SAC isn't going to fly. Gear snobs hate it because it drops a barrier for ankle-biters to get in with digital consoles; that's pretty obvious reading a lot of the posts on this board. 

OTOH, if you're doing rodeos and you're able to build a PC from parts, SAC is a good alternative.

[Justice C. Bigler]

http://homepage.mac.com/randyhyde/we.../SACSetup.html

[Justice C. Bigler]

SAC is not for everyone. If you don't have the DIY mentality, SAC isn't quite "prime-time" ready for you yet.

I can get the DIY approach. It would have been cooler if he had written SAC for Linux, then it would truly be an open source mixing platform. Maybe then I could get into it. But if you use hardware other than the cheap shit by Behringer, you're still looking at something in line with an M7 or SC48 (or more perhaps).

[George Dougherty]

I can get the DIY approach. It would have been cooler if he had written SAC for Linux, then it would truly be an open source mixing platform. Maybe then I could get into it. But if you use hardware other than the cheap shit by Behringer, you're still looking at something in line with an M7 or SC48 (or more perhaps).

Hardly. ART Tubeopto pre's are ~$350, Focusrite Octopre Dynamics are ~$550-600. Both are better than ADA8000's and don't push the budget into the ridiculous.

While Linux might have been a good foundation for the app itself, Windows was the best choice for the community IMO. Biggest reason is VST support. There's very little plugin support on Linux. Mac may have been better as well but there are far more windows only vst plugins than Mac. RTAS might be nice but I'd guess there's licensing issues there and the plugins themselves tend to be pricey.

SAC also grew out of the existing SAW studio engine which has been Windows only for decades.

There are some open source semi-alternatives to SAC on Linux but they're a far cry from it in features and usability.

[Randall Hyde]

Try that again:
http://homepage.mac.com/randyhyde/webster.cs.ucr.edu/SACSetup.html

[ProSoundWeb Community]