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[Keith Branagan]

Hello all, please excuse my question if you've answered it before (I have searched and found some really useful information) I currently run a single KF850e on top of 2 SB1000's per side. (Small narrow room)
subs: 2x Crown 5002, one channel per box
Lows: Crown 3600 one channel per box
Mids: crown 2400 one channel per box
High's: Crown 1202 one channel per box.
Am I correct in thinking that the amps do not have the same voltage gain therefore the processor settings online will need further adjustments after putting in the greybox settings?
Should I alter the band outputs (mids high's etc) in the 4800 to compensate for the different voltage gains?
Would altering the band outputs also alter the crossover points?
Any information would be really helpful, I just can't get my head around how to set the processor to replicate equal voltage gain in the amps.
Many thanks.

[Mac Kerr]

subs: 2x Crown 5002, one channel per box
Lows: Crown 3600 one channel per box
Mids: crown 2400 one channel per box
High's: Crown 1202 one channel per box.
Am I correct in thinking that the amps do not have the same voltage gain therefore the processor settings online will need further adjustments after putting in the greybox settings?
Should I alter the band outputs (mids high's etc) in the 4800 to compensate for the different voltage gains?
Would altering the band outputs also alter the crossover points?
Any information would be really helpful, I just can't get my head around how to set the processor to replicate equal voltage gain in the amps.
Many thanks.

If you put all the amps in the 26dB position on the sensitivity switch they will all have the same voltage gain (26dB). In the other positions they do not have the same gain.

Mac

[Keith Branagan]

If you put all the amps in the 26dB position on the sensitivity switch they will all have the same voltage gain (26dB). In the other positions they do not have the same gain.

Mac

Thanks Mac,

I did think about that, will the output level be lower than I'm used to if I do this?
I assume I would have to put in at lease x2 voltage to get the levels out that I'm used to or am I wrong?
Thanks again for you speedy answer.

Keith.

[David Sturzenbecher]

Hello all, please excuse my question if you've answered it before (I have searched and found some really useful information) I currently run a single KF850e on top of 2 SB1000's per side. (Small narrow room)
subs: 2x Crown 5002, one channel per box
Lows: Crown 3600 one channel per box
Mids: crown 2400 one channel per box
High's: Crown 1202 one channel per box.
Am I correct in thinking that the amps do not have the same voltage gain therefore the processor settings online will need further adjustments after putting in the greybox settings?
Should I alter the band outputs (mids high's etc) in the 4800 to compensate for the different voltage gains?
Would altering the band outputs also alter the crossover points?
Any information would be really helpful, I just can't get my head around how to set the processor to replicate equal voltage gain in the amps.
Many thanks.

How do you plan on putting EAW gray box settings in a dbx4800? 


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[Ivan Beaver]

How do you plan on putting EAW gray box settings in a dbx4800? 


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The same way you put a Ford engine program in a Chevy.  I don't see the issue   

[Ivan Beaver]

Thanks Mac,

I did think about that, will the output level be lower than I'm used to if I do this?
I assume I would have to put in at lease x2 voltage to get the levels out that I'm used to or am I wrong?
Thanks again for you speedy answer.

Keith.

Gain and max level are very different things.

There are a lot of "it depends" and "compared to what" involved in the "correct" answer.

[Keith Branagan]

How do you plan on putting EAW gray box settings in a dbx4800? 

Am I wrong in thinking that the processor settings found on the DBX website are based on the greybox settings? Those are the settings I'm using.
As far as gain/ level etc I mix at around 104dB at the desk with peaks of 110dB if I were to switch the amps to the 26dB setting would I have to put more into them to get the same reading at the desk?

Thanks for all the answers.

Keith.

[Ivan Beaver]

if I were to switch the amps to the 26dB setting would I have to put more into them to get the same reading at the desk?

Thanks for all the answers.

Keith.

It depends on what you are comparing that to.  You may or may not need to increase the drive level.

Of course, having a lower gain setting on the amps will give you a greater dynamic range to the system.

[David Sturzenbecher]

How do you plan on putting EAW gray box settings in a dbx4800? 

Am I wrong in thinking that the processor settings found on the DBX website are based on the greybox settings? Those are the settings I'm using.
As far as gain/ level etc I mix at around 104dB at the desk with peaks of 110dB if I were to switch the amps to the 26dB setting would I have to put more into them to get the same reading at the desk?

Thanks for all the answers.

Keith.

I only see EAW settings for the 480 not the 4800. So those won't work.  Additionally, the 4800 does not have FIR capabilities, which are the basis of the grey box magic.   While the 4800 is a really good processor, if you want grey box turnings (and you really do) then get an EAW processor.

[Ivan Beaver]

I only see EAW settings for the 480 not the 4800. So those won't work.  Additionally, the 4800 does not have FIR capabilities, which are the basis of the grey box magic.   While the 4800 is a really good processor, if you want grey box turnings (and you really do) then get an EAW processor.

And then he can simply (I assume) adjust the limiter thresholds to whatever amp gains he has.

A simple voltage measurement on the output of the amp will do the trick if there is no easy "conversion".

Simply turn the threshold up high, put a sine wave into the DSP somewhere around the middle of the particular passband.

DO NOT attach speakers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Turn up the input until the voltage is 10-20% (it really doesn't matter) higher than the desired limit voltage and then back down the limiter threshold until the voltage gets to the desired level.

If there are multiple limiters (peak-rems-heat etc) then start with the highest voltage one (peak) FIRST, and then work your way down.

Repeat on other passbands with different frequencies.

It should only take a couple of minutes at most.

[Keith Branagan]

I only see EAW settings for the 480 not the 4800. So those won't work.  Additionally, the 4800 does not have FIR capabilities, which are the basis of the grey box magic.   While the 4800 is a really good processor, if you want grey box turnings (and you really do) then get an EAW processor.

Thanks David, I have trouble finding any retailers in the UK selling the UX8800 which is what I would be after.
This is where I got the settings from originally: http://eaw.com/docs/2_Legacy_Products/Processor%20Settings/KFe_PROCS_rev2.pdf

I can't find where it stipulates which processor to use and assumed that as long as the processor could facilitate the data then it would be OK, is that wrong to assume?
Please excuse my ignorance but what does FIR stand for?
Thanks for your help so far.

Keith.

[Keith Branagan]

And then he can simply (I assume) adjust the limiter thresholds to whatever amp gains he has.

A simple voltage measurement on the output of the amp will do the trick if there is no easy "conversion".

Simply turn the threshold up high, put a sine wave into the DSP somewhere around the middle of the particular passband.

DO NOT attach speakers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Turn up the input until the voltage is 10-20% (it really doesn't matter) higher than the desired limit voltage and then back down the limiter threshold until the voltage gets to the desired level.

If there are multiple limiters (peak-rems-heat etc) then start with the highest voltage one (peak) FIRST, and then work your way down.

Repeat on other passbands with different frequencies.

It should only take a couple of minutes at most.

Thanks Ivan, I will give it a go, I did some math a while ago and set my limiters up but I started all this double checking for no reason and now I'm in deep!!!
Thanks everyone for all you input, it's really great to know that there are so many experts willing to help.

[Tim McCulloch]

Thanks David, I have trouble finding any retailers in the UK selling the UX8800 which is what I would be after.
This is where I got the settings from originally: http://eaw.com/docs/2_Legacy_Products/Processor%20Settings/KFe_PROCS_rev2.pdf

I can't find where it stipulates which processor to use and assumed that as long as the processor could facilitate the data then it would be OK, is that wrong to assume?
Please excuse my ignorance but what does FIR stand for?
Thanks for your help so far.

Keith.

Digital implementations of filter topology differ (sometimes significantly) among DSP manufactuers.  Ashly made the dedicated EAW processors (and may make the UX8800, I'm not sure) and I'm certain the same numbers put into a dbx or BSS processor will not sound the same as with Ashly (been there, done that, didn't like the results).

FIR is Finite Impulse Response.  You might want to do a wikipedia read on IIR (Infinite Impulse Response) for comparison.  There is math involved.   There is at least one Famous (or not) Dead Guy, Fourier, about whom you will learn...

[Ivan Beaver]

Digital implementations of filter topology differ (sometimes significantly) among DSP manufactuers.

Tim is correct-you can't just "copy the numbers".

You might get lucky, you might not.  I remember in one case where I was measuring the transfer function of different processors with the same numbers into different units.

One manufacturer we had to change the Q of the filters to match the target.  On the other we had to change the frequence-but the Q was fine.

I have heard (cannot confirm) that with "one of the more famous DSP manufacturers", you cannot take the numbers from one model and put them into another model and get the same result.

And "everybody" said "OH it is going to be great when go digital-everything will work together and be much more uniform.

BULL SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is MUCH worse than with analog.

But this is not coming down on digital-in soooo many ways we are MUCH better off than with analog in what we can do. 

You just have to be careful and not "assume" things will all be the same

[Keith Branagan]

Wow, thanks guys, I'm overwhelmed with the level of knowledge and willingness to help.
I need to hit the books, I guess I need an EAW processor, so the question I have now is how would you fellas get by in the meantime until I get an EAW processor?

Thanks again.

[Ivan Beaver]

Wow, thanks guys, I'm overwhelmed with the level of knowledge and willingness to help.
I need to hit the books, I guess I need an EAW processor, so the question I have now is how would you fellas get by in the meantime until I get an EAW processor?

Thanks again.

You could simply "put the numbers in" and it would be a start, and probably not suck to bad.

Or it might be great-who knows??

Could it be better with the proper filter setup?  Maybe-maybe not.

But i would argue that simply putting in the numbers inot any DSP would be better than guessing at it.

[Tim McCulloch]

Wow, thanks guys, I'm overwhelmed with the level of knowledge and willingness to help.
I need to hit the books, I guess I need an EAW processor, so the question I have now is how would you fellas get by in the meantime until I get an EAW processor?

Thanks again.

The settings you linked to will work with Ashly Protea 4.24C.  You can probably find one used for around £500 or so.

Understand that these processor settings make some assumptions, the first of which is that the speakers are part of a much larger array - there is expectation of LF coupling for >4 units.  If you run pairs you'll need to increase the LF drive level and you'll probably want to do some significant EQ work to the HF as it's very bright (the presumption of air absorption over long distances).

The charts also do not make clear that if you run subs with the 850 you'll need to make other changes, the footnote is beneath the KF855 settings.

As for the UX8800, EAW's website shows no distributor for Great Britain, but does list AVL Systems in Ireland.  Ken Dewar is the European sales director for EAW, you might send him an email to confirm dealer status in G.B.  I was surprised that Thomann didn't have the UX...  Ultimately the UX8800 is the way to go.

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