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Author Topic: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!  (Read 9905 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2015, 07:34:35 am »



What type of speakers would work best for this auditorium?

I am still a bit confused.  You have speakers you bought-but you are asking about new speakers and have given a budget that includes everything-including labor.

Does this price include selling your old speakers?  Or would that provide additional money?

You have a very limited budget for the job-so it is REAL important for people to know what kind of money is available, or else it is a waste of time doing a design and then being told "That is to expensive".

If your budget is 10K, then you need to go ahead and subtract about 40-50% to account for install-wire-setup.

That leaves about 5K for speakers (and fly hardware) and amps and processing.

That is not a lot to work with.

My suggestion is to simply use what you have as best you can-and save some money to get a real system later on-rather than just "buying some new speakers" and hoping they will do better than what you have.

Your money would be best spent hiring somebody to get the most out of what you already have.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Dennis Bokov

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2015, 10:44:15 am »

I am still a bit confused.  You have speakers you bought-but you are asking about new speakers and have given a budget that includes everything-including labor ?

We have 2k more donated towards new speaker system. So, the total budget now is 12k for speakers system.  7k for Speakers only. Amps, fly ware, labor, wiring is not part of 7k.

The jbl speakers were bought to use as floor monitors. And we decided that that's what we will use them for for sure.

Please suggest what type of speakers can work for our auditorium? looking at the diagram, what's the best location to fly them to achieve the best coverage?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2015, 01:28:38 pm »

We have 2k more donated towards new speaker system. So, the total budget now is 12k for speakers system.  7k for Speakers only. Amps, fly ware, labor, wiring is not part of 7k.

The jbl speakers were bought to use as floor monitors. And we decided that that's what we will use them for for sure.

Please suggest what type of speakers can work for our auditorium? looking at the diagram, what's the best location to fly them to achieve the best coverage?
I would put a wide coverage (90 or so) loudspeaker just in front of the pulpit and aimed at the furthest rear seat.

Then 2 (one each side) speakers off to the sides for the seats down front on the left and right.

The center speaker needs to be full range-while the ones on the side don't need to go as low-since the main speaker will have lost pattern control down at the lower freq and the side ones need to be highpassed there so they don't interfere with the main speaker.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2015, 01:35:37 pm »

I would put a wide coverage (90 or so) loudspeaker just in front of the pulpit and aimed at the furthest rear seat.

Then 2 (one each side) speakers off to the sides for the seats down front on the left and right.

The center speaker needs to be full range-while the ones on the side don't need to go as low-since the main speaker will have lost pattern control down at the lower freq and the side ones need to be highpassed there so they don't interfere with the main speaker.

Seconded.  However...

I'll reiterate the absolute necessity of involving (hiring) an experienced professional with credentials and a proven track record to supervise and set up the room.  Anyone with money can buy a Stradivarius, but it takes a trained operator to use it.  You'll need to have the best speaker for your application and the correct setup/tuning to be able to use it and learn what you need to do to get the mix you need. 

An un-tuned system canl render your mixer controls less effective or less than effective. 
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Dennis Bokov

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2015, 04:00:45 pm »

I would put a wide coverage (90 or so) loudspeaker just in front of the pulpit and aimed at the furthest rear seat.

Then 2 (one each side) speakers off to the sides for the seats down front on the left and right.

The center speaker needs to be full range-while the ones on the side don't need to go as low-since the main speaker will have lost pattern control down at the lower freq and the side ones need to be highpassed there so they don't interfere with the main speaker.

 Thank you for your response, Ivan. Just to clarify,

So, total of 3 speakers ? One center and two side fills, if I understood it correctly. Will that be enough to cover all 62ft in length with fairly even  spl , (goal is < 6 db difference front to back)? Or should we add second row fill in speakers, delayed? 
I am concerned about front rows being too loud, vs rear row. I think the center speaker might not be high enough, (15ft-16ft) to achieve an even loudness between front and back rows.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2015, 05:22:34 pm »

Thank you for your response, Ivan. Just to clarify,

So, total of 3 speakers ? One center and two side fills, if I understood it correctly. Will that be enough to cover all 62ft in length with fairly even  spl , (goal is < 6 db difference front to back)? Or should we add second row fill in speakers, delayed? 
I am concerned about front rows being too loud, vs rear row. I think the center speaker might not be high enough, (15ft-16ft) to achieve an even loudness between front and back rows.
This is where pattern control is a good thing-it helps to reduce the levels up front.

But speakers with pattern control down to a decent low freq are not cheap and will not fit your budget

If you simply "start adding more speakers" you are introducing all sorts of "problems" in to the room.  Since the budget is not high-more speakers for the same amount of money means cheaper speakers-that generally offer lower sound quality, less pattern control etc.

You will end up "spraying sound" all over the room.  So while the SPL level may be more even the overall sound QUALITY will be lower.

Everything is a compromise.

And if even SPL is the main goal-where were you going to put the subs to get even sub energy in the room? 

That is a whole different set of problems.

The main goal should be BALANCE-not just SPL
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Craig Hamilton

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2015, 03:20:09 pm »

Everything in audio is generally a compromise. The perfect scenario for quality is a single point source so there is no interference between multiple sources. The best for loudness is even distance from the source to all listeners. Given the limitations of budget and the existing space, for quality you want to minimize the number of sources per listener but you wil need at least one set of delay speakers to control the loudness from front to back.

My only other choice would be a front mono cluster and another cluster half way down the room, thus to stay away from the duct and place the speakers higher to lessen the difference in distance between the nearest and furthest listener.

My attempt at a solution.

Looking at your photos, the current delay speakers are decently located front to back but they are too high and buried behind the lights and the air duct and possibly a little bit too far forward. I would hang 2 new speakers at the front of the room right where the current ones are as their location looks good. I would hang a second pair just forward of the peak in the main beams and just below the air duct so there is no blockage of the coverage pattern.

This should break the room up into 4 seperate quarters, each being covered by one main speaker. I see this as the best compromise of point source vs SPL. Use an installation speaker with a fairly wide coverage pattern but verify you won't wash the side walls too much. I'm thinking a speaker with a 100 degree nominal pattern such as the install version of a QSC K10 or equivalent might work well.
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Dennis Bokov

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2015, 03:55:33 pm »

Craig Hamilton thank you for your valuable reply!

As you said, and I agree, everything is compromise in audio. we just need to find the best one.
The room ideally needs some treatment, but the owners of the building who also have their church services in the same room don't want to do anything due to primarily money issues.

I have done speakers set up in other rooms/ churches in the past splitting a long room in 4 clusters, and it worked well in terms of even coverage. I have no experience with center clusters though. I do like the center cluster idea, but need some more details about type of speakers that go into the cluster and their nominal coverage pattern. Basically, I need some education how to splay speakers properly minimizing comb filtering effect.

Would a center cluster consist of 3 speakers with 60 degree pattern each? Is combining two 85 degree speakers in the cluster of two a good idea?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 04:27:01 pm by Dennis Bokov »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2015, 12:02:03 pm »

Craig Hamilton thank you for your valuable reply!

As you said, and I agree, everything is compromise in audio. we just need to find the best one.
The room ideally needs some treatment, but the owners of the building who also have their church services in the same room don't want to do anything due to primarily money issues.

I have done speakers set up in other rooms/ churches in the past splitting a long room in 4 clusters, and it worked well in terms of even coverage. I have no experience with center clusters though. I do like the center cluster idea, but need some more details about type of speakers that go into the cluster and their nominal coverage pattern. Basically, I need some education how to splay speakers properly minimizing comb filtering effect.

Would a center cluster consist of 3 speakers with 60 degree pattern each? Is combining two 85 degree speakers in the cluster of two a good idea?
The problem with putting 3 speakers together (ASSUMING they will actually array well-most don't-despite the marketing) is that when you tilt the cluster down-only the one in the middle actually goes down.

The ones on the side just kind of "rotate" and point at the walls and not the floor.

I like to us a single wide coverage speaker for the center (typically 90).

The ones on the side will depend on the actual room -position etc.

But putting the speakers to the sides there is less lobing directly under the center cluster (the lobing reduces gain before feedback).

Generally the center speaker is a full range device while the ones on the side do not need as much low freq (because that is already coming out of the center speaker really wide.  So they are highpass where they need to be to integrate with the "spill" from the main speaker.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Dennis Bokov

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2015, 01:15:31 am »

I like to us a single wide coverage speaker for the center (typically 90).
The ones on the side will depend on the actual room -position etc.

A rough sketch of a possible speaker position according to your suggestion. Center is 90 degree coverage and side fills are at 60 degree. How far down or up would you place the side speakers? it seems to that not all the seats will get a good coverage upfront .
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2015, 01:15:31 am »


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