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Author Topic: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!  (Read 9584 times)

Dennis Bokov

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Hello,
I am not a sound engineer, so everything i know i am learning from books, blogs and excellent forums like this one. You help will be greatly appreciated.
   We are renting the church right now and inherited the current sound system. Two churches share the PA. I am responsible for the sound reinforcement in our church. The second church (the building owners) gave me a permission to do whatever i want with the PA to make it better.
   The current PA is a complete mess. The way the speakers are hanging right now don't provide enough coverage and therefore enough volume for people sitting on the sides. The front top hanging is a fake array type speaker - TOA HX-5 . They sound pretty unnatural and muffled. Using Smaart transfer function and a 6 band parametric EQ, I was able to make them sound somewhat clear. A cheap EV ZLX speaker though sounds way better right out of the box compared to that EQed TOA speaker. I also believe those TOA speakers are underpowered. The amp for them is Crown CV 1000.
 
   The last seats are about 50 ft from the speakers. Temporarily I installed couple of Yamaha S115v club series speakers to provide enough volume for the rear seats. I understand the locations where they are mounted arenít ideal, but needed a quick solution. I do have a delay on them. Those Yamahas sound pretty good actually. People prefer the rear seats now :)

   The budget is about $9k for speakers, amps, and installation hardware/wiring. Installation will be done by us. It needs to be a versatile system. I am thinking ahead. We may be renting this building for next couple years probably. We are currently saving money to buy our own church. So, preferably we need something that we could use in another building. i realize it might not work for a different building, just keep it in mind when you recommend something.

   The auditorium seats about 350. the width is 65ft. The ceiling is about 23ft high at the peak. This used to be a bowling place, that was converted to a church building.
   The goal is to provide a good coverage for everyone. the SPL is to be between 80-90db. The band plays contemporary type style christian music. They donít play anything above 95db, A measured.

   I recently won 4 JBL Marquis MS112 speakers from a public surplus action for total of $700. Good price for a pro grade install speaker i believe. I was planning to use them as floor monitors. I am planning to buy two Crown XTI2002 amps to power the JBLs. The mixing console is behringer X32.

   Iíve been thinking may be JBLS will work as main speakers? What do you think? is that a good idea? There for the front as Left Center and Right,  and will reuse Yamaha S115V speakers for the second row with delay: Left,Right will be Yamaha and center will be the JBL.  This will save us money, plus i donít really want to get a new speaker system designed for this building and in 2 years move to another where it wonít work.
   Any other suggestions?
   
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 12:40:27 am by Dennis Bokov »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Please help with speaker choice and proper install location!
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2015, 07:36:26 am »

You first have to use your full real name on this forum to get any responses.

But since you are "halfway there", here is a FIRST question.

What all does your budget need to include?  The whole system (speakers-amps-mixer-mics-monitor etc)? or just the speaker system?

Does it need to include installation numbers?

Figuring out what people have to "work with" goes A LONG way towards getting a real usable answer.
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Ivan Beaver
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Mac Kerr

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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2015, 08:53:38 am »

Hello,
I am not a sound engineer, so everything i know i am learning from books, blogs and excellent forums like this one. You help will be greatly appreciated.

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
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Dennis Bokov

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Re: Please help with speaker choice and proper install location!
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2015, 03:43:54 pm »


What all does your budget need to include?  The whole system (speakers-amps-mixer-mics-monitor etc)? or just the speaker system?

Does it need to include installation numbers?

The budget is $9000. it should included speaker system only: speakers, amps, sub and installation hardware/wiring. We will be installing it ourselves.
I can use the JBL Marquis MS112 as monitors, if using them as mains not a good idea.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 03:46:14 pm by Dennis Bokov »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Please help with speaker choice and proper install location!
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2015, 07:02:24 pm »

The budget is $9000. it should included speaker system only: speakers, amps, sub and installation hardware/wiring. We will be installing it ourselves.

Maybe it is me-but I am confused by your statement-you say speaker system only-but the way it is written it appears as if you want to include amps subs and installation as well.

The actual budget for the cabinets could be half if all of the above is to be included. Hence the reason for exactly what is to be included.

If you are going to install it yourself-I CERTAINLY HOPE you have QUALIFIED LOUDSPEAKER INSTALLERS in the "yourself".

REMEMBER-you will be hanging things above peoples heads THAT CAN KILL THEM if they fall.

Does your Church have the proper insurance for such things?

You MUST make SURE that the speakers are rated for flying and have the PROPER hardware to do so.

It would help if you would include some drawings with dimensions (including height of rig points).

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Please help with speaker choice and proper install location!
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2015, 07:08:35 pm »

One more thing-who is going to be responsible for proper setup/alignment of the system.

This includes everything from proper level setting-to proper eq/delay setting and limiter setting to help reduce the possibility of failure.

That can make the difference between a system that works well and one that doesn't.

The "local guy in the Church that has a good stereo system", is NOT the guy to do this.

That could take a chunk of the budget as well.

I am not trying to be a "Debbie downer", but rather just pointing out things that need to be considered before making a poor decision based on things you are not aware of
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Ivan Beaver
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PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Dennis Bokov

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Re: Please help with speaker choice and proper install location!
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2015, 09:00:25 pm »

Ivan, Thank you for your time responding to this post. I do appreciate it.

Maybe it is me-but I am confused by your statement-you say speaker system only-but the way it is written it appears as if you want to include amps subs and installation as well.

English is my second language, so i may not use the proper terms, but a speaker system to  me means everything that is needed to make the speaker work. it must include amps, wiring, and a sub if needed. Installation is also a part of it. What's the point of the system if its sitting on the floor? I am not a professional installer, so maybe i don't use the right terminology and meaning that you guys are accustom to. Sorry.

If you are going to install it yourself-I CERTAINLY HOPE you have QUALIFIED LOUDSPEAKER INSTALLERS in the "yourself".
REMEMBER-you will be hanging things above peoples heads THAT CAN KILL THEM if they fall.

You MUST make SURE that the speakers are rated for flying and have the PROPER hardware to do so.

I am not dumb. I certainly realize that an installation needs to be safe. I am asking for speaker suggestions that are "flyable" meaning that they are designed to be hang, having proper mounting suspension points. The JBL speakers that i have do have the suspension points. they are designed to be hanged if needed. I will be buying the suspension kit made by JBL specifically for this type of speaker, if i decide to hang them. Most of the manufacturers who sell install speakers also sell necessary hardware for a safe installation and provide diagrams as well.

Do you think I enjoy spending so much time researching and learning about how to install speakers safely? not really, i got a life too. I would rather pay someone like you, a pro installer, if we had budget for that. We are a small congregation and can't afford to pay someone at this time.  I do know a friend of mine who is the professional sound system installer in the area. He is not doing the installation, but agreed to come supervise and verify that its done properly.


One more thing-who is going to be responsible for proper setup/alignment of the system?
I will be responsible for that. I do have some experience with it. My another friend  took the Smaart class in the past and has some experience as well with proper system setup.

It would help if you would include some drawings with dimensions (including height of rig points).

Thank you! looking forward to your suggestions. I will provide a diagram later this week.

What i am actually asking is not how to do an install, but more about 1. What brand and model of speakers can you suggest? and 2. Where will be the best placement of those speakers in the auditorium for the best coverage.
 I've been looking into Turbosound TCX install speakers. We may be able to afford them.
Can you recommend any other speaker brands considering our budget of 9-10k?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:18:15 am by Dennis Bokov »
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eric lenasbunt

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2015, 11:39:01 pm »


Ivan, Thank you for your time responding to this post. I do appreciate it.

English is my second language, so i may not use the proper terms, but a speaker system to  me means everything that is needed to make the speaker work. it must include amps, wiring, and a sub if needed. Installation is also a part of it. What's the point of the system if its sitting on the floor? I am not a professional installer, so maybe i don't use the right terminology and meaning that you guys are accustom to. Sorry.

I am not dumb. I certainly realize that an installation needs to be safe. I am asking for speaker suggestions that are "flyable" meaning that they are designed to be hang, having proper mounting suspension points. The JBL speakers that i have do have the suspension points. they are designed to be hanged if needed. I will be buying the suspension kit made by JBL specifically for this type of speaker, if i decide to hang them. Most of the manufacturers who sell install speakers also sell necessary hardware for a safe installation and provide diagrams as well.

Do you think I enjoy spending so much time researching and learning about how to install speakers safely? not really, i got a life too. I would rather pay someone like you, a pro installer, if we had budget for that. We are a small congregation and can't afford to pay someone at this time.  I do know a friend of mine who is the professional sound system installer in the area. He is not doing the installation, but agreed to come supervise and verify that its done properly.

I will be responsible for that. I do have some experience with it. My another friend  took the Smaart class in the past and has some experience as well with proper system setup.

Thank you! looking forward to your suggestions. I will provide a diagram later this week.

What i am actually asking is not how to do an install, but more about 1. What brand and model of speakers can you suggest? and 2. Where will be the best placement of those speakers in the auditorium for the best coverage.
 I've been looking into Turbosound TCX install speakers. We may be able to afford them.
Can you recommend any other speaker brands considering our budget of 9-10k?

Without dimensions and rigging point locations it is tough to recommend anything specific.
JBL, EV, QSC, name a company, they probably have speakers in your budget, but that does not mean they are they right speakers...
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Dennis Bokov

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2015, 12:29:56 am »

Without dimensions and rigging point locations it is tough to recommend anything specific.
JBL, EV, QSC, name a company, they probably have speakers in your budget, but that does not mean they are they right speakers...

Below is the dimensions diagram and some pictures with the height of the building. the seating area is pretty much a square.
1. Speakers will be hanging about 15ft above.
2. Rigging points can be pretty much anywhere where is a wooden beam (big ones and smaller ones between the big ones), take a look at the pictures below
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 12:42:56 am by Dennis Bokov »
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Dennis Bokov

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Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2015, 12:37:06 am »

The rigging point can be pretty much anywhere. So, Looking at the diagram above and the pictures,
Where do yo think would be the best place to mount the speakers for the best coverage?

What type of speakers would work best for this auditorium?

Any advise is greatly appreciated. Thank!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 12:43:50 am by Dennis Bokov »
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