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Author Topic: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network  (Read 11926 times)

Scott Holtzman

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Re: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2015, 04:32:47 pm »

Rob, this is obviously working ok for you but I have seen problems with a similar setup where the netgear switch would fall over after 12+ hours of use. I'm guessing that the the wireless was being inundated with dante traffic. Playing super safe, my prefered option is to have a switch for the Dante network and a separate WAP for Yamaha control.

ADE, that makes no sense at all.  Something was configured wrong.

In the grand scheme of things it's not that much traffic.  VLAN's isolate at layer 2 so the networks can't interfere.

As far as forwarding performance, even the least expensive managed switch will have 4G of forwarding performance.

All they have to do is look at the source and destination MAC address and forward the packed based on a table to the right port.  It's not like it's having to deal with IP and route.
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Ade Stuart

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Re: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2015, 06:40:50 pm »

ADE, that makes no sense at all.  Something was configured wrong.

Hi Scott,

I've edited my post, it was a domestic router with Wi-Fi not a switch.

It was three years ago or so but I remember the configuration. 2 laptops, 1 MY card, 1 LS9 connected to a netgear router with Wi-Fi for StageMix and RDP. DHCP enabled and all on the same subnet. We are talking basic here, 6 channels of DVS playback and 2 record on one laptop, control and backup analogue playback on the second laptop. No QOS, no VLANs.

I'd previously used this router a number of times without dante and it had been ok. With the Dante setup I remember having to reboot the router 3 or 4 times over a 3 day event. Maybe, one of the laptops was connecting via Wi-Fi as well as well as ethernet, I suspect this may have been the case, and the router tried to route dante through the Wi-Fi.

I don't have a general problem with Dante and control being on the same network (or same segment as long as there is at least some QOS). From my early experience, it's putting it all on these little 4 port routers that I would question.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2015, 03:07:33 am »

Yes...you said a netgear switch not a consumer router with a few switchports.  That is an incomprehensible configuration.
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Rob Spence

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Re: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2015, 04:09:48 pm »

Yes...you said a netgear switch not a consumer router with a few switchports.  That is an incomprehensible configuration.

What is it that is incomprehensible?

However, I believe many of the consumer wifi routers with local ports are switches (say, 4 external ports and 2 internal ports for the AP and the router). Not many except for some very low end units are hubs anymore.

I use a Netgear consumer unit with no trouble at all. Ever.

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Bob Leonard

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Re: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2015, 06:43:28 pm »

I'm reading through these posts and see that there is a myriad of misconception and inaccurate advice. The OPs request was to separate his existing flat network (single broadcast domain), into a pair of networks which do not have the capability to pass network traffic between each other. This is done by creating a pair of VLANs using an intelligent manageable switch. In Rileys case he was specific in his first post, however, at some point in time Riley may need to consider the need for each and the other LAN to converse, accept packets from each other. This could be for the use of DHCP, data movement, etc., but at some point this will become the case.

The classic home router provided by the ISP will often have any number of ports where additional workstations can be attached. Yes, these ports are considered to be a switch, however, in most cases they can not be managed and are useless for Rileys specific application, separating the LAN. All ports see all traffic, and this is the typical design of most combo router/switch devices.

A router could be used to separate the LAN. Routers work at layer 3 (network layer) of the ISO model. Routers drop and do NOT forward broadcast traffic effectively isolating the two LANs, just as your home private network is isolated from the licensed IP addresses of the internet. Configuration of the router for this project would become a nightmare for Riley, requiring updated routing tables with the change of each physical device.

The proper way for Riley to separate his network into a pair of LANs is through the use of a managed switch. The managed switch will support both LANs through the assignment of virtual LANs (VLAN). Each of the two (2) VLANs will be assigned to a group of ports, separating the those ports and the hardware attached from one and the other. Port assignment of this type is known as creating a STATIC VLAN.

Generally speaking I have not seen a time when intercommunication between two LANs is not, or has not, become a requirement. In the case where this requirement needs to be met then TRUNKING must be applied. With certain switches this means the use of a router. When Cisco switches are used port trunking is configured and the two VLANs are then configured to allow designated devices to converse between each other. This trunking protocol is inherent in almost all decent manageable switches today. The protocol is IEEE 802.1Q, which should show up in the switch specifications. These are just a couple of the reasons I recommended the 300 series switches to Riley in my first post.

If Riley has no need to pass data between the two network, if his WIFI network must be totally secured from the other networks, then a switch with a simple configuration will do the job.

If Riley decides he needs interlan communication then trunking will be part of the solution.

If Riley uses WAP2 and 802.1x level security features, his wireless network will be secure.

Any switch, manageable or not, should be able to handle the number of frames sent by the small number of devices usually attached in the case of a studio, or sound provider. Broadcast and very large events, such as those Mac works with are not the same as being discussed here.

Switches work at both level 2 and 3 of the ISO model.

The ISO model layers are;

Application
Presentation
Session
Transport
Network
Datalink
Physical

Layer one (1) is the physical layer.

Have a good day.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 06:46:50 pm by Bob Leonard »
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Rob Spence

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Re: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2015, 07:03:43 pm »

Nice explanation Bob.


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Scott Holtzman

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Re: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2015, 02:47:10 am »

What is it that is incomprehensible?

However, I believe many of the consumer wifi routers with local ports are switches (say, 4 external ports and 2 internal ports for the AP and the router). Not many except for some very low end units are hubs anymore.

I use a Netgear consumer unit with no trouble at all. Ever.

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You use a consumer router for Dante?  I understand some folks use them for remote control however I can't support putting it in the signal path.

I hope that clarifies my position.
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Andrew Broughton

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Re: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2015, 02:57:57 am »

You use a consumer router for Dante?  I understand some folks use them for remote control however I can't support putting it in the signal path.

I hope that clarifies my position.
I just pulled a bunch of Netgear switches from a Dante setup after having nothing but problems and replaced them with professional, rack-mount managed switches and all problems went away.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2015, 03:15:50 am »

Nice explanation Bob.


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Nice wrong explanation.  Sorry Bob but 802.1q vlan trunking is a layer two protocol that allows multiple collision domains (untagged LAN's) to share a common physical media.

Usual application is inter switch communication.   It however has nothing to do with routing layer 3 traffic. 

Remember we are talking about providing a path for whatever reason between those two networks.  This is very common to segment a LAN in an enterprise environment.  A router that understands .1q (pronounced dot 1 q) can create virtual interfaces for each vlan on a single physical interface. That router, if used as the gateway for each network allows l3 and above traffic to transit the vlans.

Originally what was being talked about was running two networks in a single collision domain.  As Bob pointed out any managed switch allows you to assign ports to vlans.  These ports are statically assigned to the vlan.  A vlan is by nature a static assignment. 

There are really only two take away a for the audio professional.

1.   A managed switch should always be used for any critical path traffic.  A manages switch allows visibility into layer 2 information such as duplex and speed mismatch, collisions or other performance robbing problems.

2.  Managed switches allow you to create virtual LANs and segment the switch.  Think of it as several little switches in one box.  You can assign any port to any virtual lab

If you need to manage devices in both vlans then you should look at a hybrid layer2/3 switch or running a trunk port to your pc then create an interface on each network for the PC.  A switch and router is too much to travel with on the road.  This is way out of the original scope of the thread and worthy of another debate.

I am sure a day will come when a network/computer tech will be part of large tours. The network and computers have become too mission critical to leave any question as to who is responsible for the operation and maintenance.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Bob Leonard

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Re: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2015, 03:40:11 pm »

I think you better re-read my post Scott. I didn't mention anywhere in my post which layer 802.1q was applicable to, but good for you knowing that if it's a bridging protocol it belongs on layer 2. You count the OSI model layers from the bottom up, so that would be the DATALINK layer in case you're wondering.
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Re: VPN set up for running Yamaha console control on a Dante network
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2015, 03:40:11 pm »


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