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[benkuiper]

gday,

new to this forum, so go easy if I'm not making too much sense.

at church we often have Keys (electric) guitar (acoustic) bass (electric) and a vocal or two.

We have a fairly cheap setup, being a behringer xenyx desk and two behringer eurolive 12 inch active speakers. I don't expect it to sound great but....

vocals and guitar sound fine through it, but the keys and bass sound like mud. I don't expect it to take care of the bass too well but would have thought that the keys would have been fine. its a "reasonable keyboard" i think it was around 3 grand or so so should be ok, and it sounds good on the built in speakers by itself. but when going through the PA sounds really muddy and lacks any sort of brightness.

the room is around 12 x 22 meters x 3 high, all plaster walls and about half carpeted. We sit width ways  and normally have around 60 people there and have the level so you can hear yourself sing :-)

any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[John Rutirasiri]

gday,

new to this forum, so go easy if I'm not making too much sense.

at church we often have Keys (electric) guitar (acoustic) bass (electric) and a vocal or two.

We have a fairly cheap setup, being a behringer xenyx desk and two behringer eurolive 12 inch active speakers. I don't expect it to sound great but....

vocals and guitar sound fine through it, but the keys and bass sound like mud. I don't expect it to take care of the bass too well but would have thought that the keys would have been fine. its a "reasonable keyboard" i think it was around 3 grand or so so should be ok, and it sounds good on the built in speakers by itself. but when going through the PA sounds really muddy and lacks any sort of brightness.

the room is around 12 x 22 meters x 3 high, all plaster walls and about half carpeted. We sit width ways  and normally have around 60 people there and have the level so you can hear yourself sing :-)

any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

What patch is being played?  EP?  Synth pad?  Many keyboards put out a ton of low end, especially when playing lower octaves.  The built-in effects do not help, neither do a bunch of sustained notes.

In my 30 years of playing keys, I've always had to EQ down the low and low-mids, otherwise it just overpowers everything else in the mix.  It is PERFECTLY LEGAL to EQ the keys so it sounds good in the mix! 

I would also try to bypass the built-in effects/reverb (sometimes that makes the patch sounds thin.)

Lastly, are you using a DI to interface the keys to the mixer, or going straight in on the 1/4"?  What does the PFL level look like?  Some keyboards have very hot output, and dynamic range of modern keyboard is pretty phenomenal.

Cheers,
JR

[Keith Broughton]

What patch is being played?  EP?  Synth pad?  Many keyboards put out a ton of low end, especially when playing lower octaves.  The built-in effects do not help, neither do a bunch of sustained notes.

In my 30 years of playing keys, I've always had to EQ down the low and low-mids, otherwise it just overpowers everything else in the mix.  It is PERFECTLY LEGAL to EQ the keys so it sounds good in the mix! 

I would also try to bypass the built-in effects/reverb (sometimes that makes the patch sounds thin.)

That pretty much covers it.
 I have found the same thing mixing keys. Cut low end, kill reverbs and ask the player to try a different patch.
What might sound like a great piano on it's own, can get lost in a mix.
As for bass, also try a bit of cut on the lows and EQ in a boost around 3-800 (ish)

[Ivan Beaver]

gday,

new to this forum, so go easy if I'm not making too much sense.

at church we often have Keys (electric) guitar (acoustic) bass (electric) and a vocal or two.

We have a fairly cheap setup, being a behringer xenyx desk and two behringer eurolive 12 inch active speakers. I don't expect it to sound great but....

vocals and guitar sound fine through it, but the keys and bass sound like mud. I don't expect it to take care of the bass too well but would have thought that the keys would have been fine. its a "reasonable keyboard" i think it was around 3 grand or so so should be ok, and it sounds good on the built in speakers by itself. but when going through the PA sounds really muddy and lacks any sort of brightness.

the room is around 12 x 22 meters x 3 high, all plaster walls and about half carpeted. We sit width ways  and normally have around 60 people there and have the level so you can hear yourself sing :-)

any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

How are you getting the sound from the keyboard into the console?

That could be part of the problem.

We don't know what the keyboard is or what you are doing with it.

Information and details REALLY REALLY HELP.

[benkuiper]

hey, thanks for your replies.

we have not being using a DI, just jack to jack, straight in to the desk through the mono out of the keyboard. its a Kawai ES7. I think that reverb doesn't help, is the best way just to take away the pedal?

we don't normally need too much gain, sort of around half way from memory.

hope that helps a bit

[Ivan Beaver]

hey, thanks for your replies.

we have not being using a DI, just jack to jack, straight in to the desk through the mono out of the keyboard. its a Kawai ES7. I think that reverb doesn't help, is the best way just to take away the pedal?

we don't normally need too much gain, sort of around half way from memory.

hope that helps a bit

Are you using a normal 1/4 cable or a TRS (stereo) 1/4" cable?

[Jerome Malsack]

is there any EQ adjustments on the mixer and how are they adjusted.  What model Xenyx mixer

The speakers are powered and are the two levels for the treble and bass adjusted. 

I am believing that the speakers are not set with matching levels for the treble and bass. 
This would be to help with the bass player but will affect most of the sound. 


http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/QX1832USB.aspx
If you look at the picture of the 1832 it has the smile on the EQ and if yours has eq and adjusted like this it would cause the keys to be heavy or muddy.

[benkuiper]

the eq is flat on the speakers and almost flat on the desk. I wind up the bottom end on the parametric eq on the bass channel, might try without that tho.

[benkuiper]

Are you using a normal 1/4 cable or a TRS (stereo) 1/4" cable?

just a normal 1/4, not stereo

[Luke Geis]

This is going to be more of a primer on impedance's and matching of them. I address your particular situation later in the post.

If the instrument is looking for a Hi-Z load it will be bogged down heavily with the lower 10k line input of the standard 1/4" input found on most analog mixers. A Hi-Z instrument is really looking for a load between 50k to 1meg. Unless the input says Hi-Z, expect it to be used as a line input from another mixer, instrument or an effects unit that runs -10dbv or +4dbu line levels.

The reason that cables lose high end is because it has capacitance which tries to shunt high frequencies to ground when it has a close ground potential such as when plugged into a low-Z input. The closer the relation to ground between the hot and cold signal, the more highs get lost in the cable. It literally acts as a Low pass R/C circuit which dumps highs. Now when plugged into a Hi-Z input which is usually something between 50k-ohms and 1 meg., the ground potential is reduced and the signal remains strong and losses are minimized. This is provided that you run an interconnect cable that is not overly long. Usually any instrument cable over 20" is going to suffer from noise and high frequency loss. Using as short a cable as is practical, is the best approach for Hi-Z instruments. The next best approach is to use a DI box. This has a Hi-Z input and converts the signal into a Low-Z one allowing it to travel long distances through cable and not lose integrity.

Another way to think of it is this: Low-Z = Low voltage, high current. While Hi-Z = Hi voltage, low current.

The current produced by the signal is what powers it. The higher the current, the greater the distance it can travel before signal degradation is noticed. The higher the voltage the higher the conversion capability through a transformers primary is. The voltage exchanges through the DI's transformer primary and is converted into current. Conversely you can run into a DI in the other direction also. Going into the the DI's XLR output side with a Low-Z signal will exchange out the Hi-Z inputs as a Hi-Z signal. The transformer has a primary and a secondary side. The primary is the side that voltage is sent into which is converted into current. If you place a high current signal into the secondary side, it will exchange into a high voltage on the primary side. A DI is nothing more than an impedance converter allowing devices of different impedance's to be connected together without signal degradation.

Now looking at the specs for the particular Keyboard you mention, it states that it uses a Line level send. It does not state what it's impedance is though? So running into a short cable from the keyboard to the mixer should have no adverse effects. But the keybaord does have EQ settings within it. It may behoove you to double check that these are set to default. Line level out's on instruments are pretty much a waste. There is no practical way to get them into a PA that way. You can't really run a standard instrument cable longer than 20' and you shouldn't need a DI box either in reality, but using a DI box or other crafty connector is the only other way to get it into a PA at standard distances. You can run a Line level signal down balanced line for a couple hundred feet, but go and try finding a cable ready made that has 1/4" TRS connectors that long on each end...... Not a likely find. You would have to make one or convert the XLR end at the instrument into 1/4" TRS. The latter is much easier to do. What you could try and do is get a 1/4" TRS to female XLR  and a 1/4" TRS to male XLR converters and connect the 1/4" plugs into the keyboard and the mixer. Try that and see if it helps. The TRS connection as is the XLR are both balanced connections. This should allow you to run several hundred feet without issue if in fact the Keyboard has a line level out.  Try that at least and see if that helps.

[benkuiper]

yeh that makes sense. We only run a 6 meter lead as the desk is near us (not great either).

I'll also have a look at the EQ, i suppose anyone could have played with it hey.

So theres no point trying a DI then given our line level is the same as the desk takes.

[Luke Geis]

Line level is a tricky one. If the cable is unbalanced ( such as with a normal instrument cable ) it's still only good for about 20' before signal degradation starts to become noticeable. You can most certainly try a DI with as short a cable as is practical. If that doesn't improve the ultimate test would be to get a 20' ( 6 meter ) balanced TRS ( stereo ) cable.

[Jerome Malsack]

The OP has not confirmed the model of the mixer that I see so the one I have listed will accept the balanced TRS inputs on the stereo inputs. 
If using the L jack it would leave it mono.  Then the question would be if the Keyboard has TRS balanced out or headphone out.  Headphone would not be the correct output. 

[John Rutirasiri]

Luke, excellent post.

I've been playing keys since the original DX-7 and Ensoniq Mirage from the early 80's.  I'll be honest, I've not encountered a professional keyboard (even from that era) that wasn't able to drive a mixer's line input directly.  We're talking going back in times when line mixers ruled and keyboards all had unbalanced 1/4" outs.  IMO it would not make sense to design keyboard outputs to require 50K - 1Meg Ohm input impedance -- these are not guitar pickups.  Just about all pro level keyboards have 0dBV or +4dBV output levels meant to interface to line level inputs on mixers.

HOWEVER the ones that gave me grief were "home" keyboards such as early Casio Previa pianos.  Some of these could not cope with 10K inputs on mixers:  I had to crank the volume to the max to get any decent levels.  But even so, it did not muddy up the sound.  Just sounded thin.  Seemed their 1/4" were actually -10 consumer level.

Good recommendation that the OP runs the outputs through DIs if hooking up to a snake or PA.  If within 15-20ft of a mixer (e.g. mixer is on stage), it's fine to run directly into a mixer if there is no noticeable hum.  His particular keyboard (Kawai ES7 digital piano) has line outputs with adjustable output level via menus.  I would advise the OP to make sure the output level is maxed out and use the volume knob/fader to adjust the overall level.  Also check that he's taking the main L/R outputs rather than the headphone outputs.

There is a reason for the menu-adjustable output level.  As I said earlier, keyboards have an incredible dynamic range, can put out pretty much 20Hz -20KHz signals, and will generate very hot output when many notes are played simultaneously.  This can easily put some mixer's line input into clipping.

Best,
JR

[benkuiper]

Yeah cool, the desk is a XENYX X1222USB

We usually run out the line out (mono) output.

I'll get on the keyboard and see if I can tweak some settings. I thought it may have just been crappy speakers and desk but doesn't seam to be because of that.

Thanks for all your help,

I'll let you know how it goes

[Stefan Maerz]

I am believing that the speakers are not set with matching levels for the treble and bass. 
This would be to help with the bass player but will affect most of the sound. 

I have had the pleasure to use either this model of speaker (or similar, if I am not mistaken) as monitors.

They are as muddy as it gets. It is bad to the point where I don't know why Behringer even sells them. I am not a huge gear snob, but I am no fan of this speaker....

Play recorded music through them and adjust the low shelf down to taste.

The other suggestions in this thread seem like good things to investigate as well.

Best Regards,
-Stefan

[Stephen Gregory]

They are as muddy as it gets...

Play recorded music through them and adjust the low shelf down to taste...

I agree. The keyboard or cables are unlikely to be the primary source of your problem. Sure, go ahead and turn off the reverb and try the "Mono Piano" patch (a better live sound in my experience), but these will only take you so far.

It is probably too optimistic to hope that these speakers will do bass for you. You can run your bass guitar through them, but back off anything below 100Hz (maybe higher!) and focus on hearing the pitch of the bass (800Hz) rather than the thump, or you will just get mud.

Same with keys - back the bass off.  In this case you probably don't need anything below 250Hz.  Sure your grand piano patch won't sound great by itself, but at least your mix will sound better.

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