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Author Topic: Distance between electrical and audio cables  (Read 21520 times)

John Escallier

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Re: Distance between electrical and audio cables
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2016, 05:27:02 pm »

Sorry to take so long to add to this topic.  I've been sort of occupied..
  The orange extension core is special but that's been covered so many times we will leave it alone.

Can you point me to where it was covered?  It was UL approved and had the ampacity for the task.

The contrast is between the carpet covered speakers, the Tektronix storage (I think but not sure) o'scope and the childrens themed wrapping paper ??  Lot going on in that space.

1.  Yah, I don't like carpet much, but the plywood was cheap..
2.  The oscope was an old toy scope, used because a phosphor screen was needed for my ultrasonic welder PLL adjustments.
3.  What do you have against Power Puff Girls???

The most significant thing was, that snake was used to send UNbalanced line level 100 feet in an auditorium that had 15 Kw of old style solid state dimmers (before the current slew rate limitation was adopted).  The enviro was an E/M mess, especially with two 1.2 Mwatt and one  500Kw 12 pole supply less than a quarter mile away.

The in house system guy was unable to get his balanced system to be as quiet as my el cheapo unbalanced one.

John
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 05:36:22 pm by John Escallier »
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Distance between electrical and audio cables
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2016, 05:43:29 pm »

Sorry to take so long to add to this topic.  I've been sort of occupied..
Can you point me to where it was covered?  It was UL approved and had the ampacity for the task.
Code for temporary entertainment use is extra hard service cable, typically SOOW is used.  Consumer vinyl extension cords are not rated for our industry.  Besides being a bear to manage all the kinks and bends compared to rubber jacketed cable.  The typical orange vinyl extension cord is a standard tell for amateur production.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Distance between electrical and audio cables
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2016, 06:20:57 pm »

Code for temporary entertainment use is extra hard service cable, typically SOOW is used.  Consumer vinyl extension cords are not rated for our industry.  Besides being a bear to manage all the kinks and bends compared to rubber jacketed cable.  The typical orange vinyl extension cord is a standard tell for amateur production.

Or any color other than black, for that matter.

SOOW and SJOOW are almost always black. When cared for and coiled properly, they will easily lay flat on stage.

Black is the preferred color for what should be an obvious reason: the cables should be as visually unobtrusive as possible.

Yeah, I've got some fluorescent orange cords that I've used. I don't use them in any visually-sensitive area such as anywhere near a stage. The bright orange cords I have are all 12AWG and made of a high-flexibility vinyl. I have black SOOW/SJOOW cords for stage use.

Most of those pumpkin-orange cords are only 16AWG and the connectors are flimsy garbage. They are designed for electric weedeaters and holiday lights, not serious work. Even when cared for and coiled properly, they get stiff and kinky.
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Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Lyle Williams

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Re: Distance between electrical and audio cables
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2016, 04:53:21 pm »

I agree that orange on stage isn't the best look.  But some of the high current cables rated for outdoor use (and their IP66 connectors) only come in orange in my corner of the world.
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John Escallier

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Re: Distance between electrical and audio cables
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2016, 09:02:30 pm »

Code for temporary entertainment use is extra hard service cable, typically SOOW is used.  Consumer vinyl extension cords are not rated for our industry.  Besides being a bear to manage all the kinks and bends compared to rubber jacketed cable.  The typical orange vinyl extension cord is a standard tell for amateur production.
Ah, thanks.

I'm a cable tray kinda guy (article 392), with lots of grounding experience as well as EMC problems, not full time audio.  Can you point me to the article that specifies that?  thanks.

Honestly though, I built that snake 15 years ago, that pic was when it was 7 or 8 years old.  The orange cord hasn't kinked or bent.  I've seen that on other job site cords, but they really get abused.  I simply reel it out, reel it in after use.  And the load draw is one mixer and a dual cd player, a denon 600 IIRC, so maybe an ampere or two max.

If I really need to make a new one, I'll go with a code wire....that was made in 15 minutes to address an immediate system issue, and I never looked at it again.

Thanks, John
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 09:04:36 pm by John Escallier »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Distance between electrical and audio cables
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2016, 09:21:01 pm »

Ah, thanks.

I'm a cable tray kinda guy (article 392), with lots of grounding experience as well as EMC problems, not full time audio.  Can you point me to the article that specifies that?  thanks.

Honestly though, I built that snake 15 years ago, that pic was when it was 7 or 8 years old.  The orange cord hasn't kinked or bent.  I've seen that on other job site cords, but they really get abused.  I simply reel it out, reel it in after use.  And the load draw is one mixer and a dual cd player, a denon 600 IIRC, so maybe an ampere or two max.

If I really need to make a new one, I'll go with a code wire....that was made in 15 minutes to address an immediate system issue, and I never looked at it again.

Thanks, John

The applicable parts of NEC Chapters 2 & 3, the parts of Chapter 4 that deal with flexible cords, then 520, 525, and 640
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Steve M Smith

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Re: Distance between electrical and audio cables
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2016, 02:44:23 am »

Or any color other than black, for that matter.

In the UK, blue is fairly standard for 16A cables.  Black for 13A stage power.


Steve.
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John Escallier

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Re: Distance between electrical and audio cables
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2016, 10:01:03 am »

The applicable parts of NEC Chapters 2 & 3, the parts of Chapter 4 that deal with flexible cords, then 520, 525, and 640

You code guys crack me up.  The "applicable parts"...sheesh..

I was looking more for something like this:
640.42 Use of Flexible Cords and Cables.
640.42(E) Between Equipment Racks and Branch Circuit Power
The supply to a portable equipment rack shall be by means of listed extra-hard usage cords or cables, as defined in Table 400.4.

I'll have to look at the cable stamping and tag, as quite a few cables do meet the criteria of extra-hard usage ini 400.4


The chances the cord I used meets that?  Probably zero...

Again, thanks.

John
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Distance between electrical and audio cables
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2016, 10:21:12 am »

You code guys crack me up.  The "applicable parts"...sheesh..

I was looking more for something like this:
640.42 Use of Flexible Cords and Cables.
640.42(E) Between Equipment Racks and Branch Circuit Power
The supply to a portable equipment rack shall be by means of listed extra-hard usage cords or cables, as defined in Table 400.4.

I'll have to look at the cable stamping and tag, as quite a few cables do meet the criteria of extra-hard usage ini 400.4


The chances the cord I used meets that?  Probably zero...

Again, thanks.

John

I'm available for weddings, bar mitzvahs, and NEC consultation beginning at $250/hour.

The language in 400.4 and the tables that accompany it isn't particularly clear, but the take-away is that any cable type with a "J" in it is NOT extra-hard service.  "J" is for Junior hard service; without the J the cable is "hard service" under 400.4 and is actually "extra hard service" as referred to elsewhere in the Code.

Usage indoors puts our work under 520, "Theaters, Audience Areas of Motion Picture & Television Studios, Performance Areas, and Similar Locations."  This Article is where much confusion comes from regarding allowed cable types for certain types of assemblies (break outs, break ins, etc).  Outdoors, our work is under 525, "Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs and Similar Events."

Special Equipment (Chapter 6) potentially modifies or excepts certain uses from other aspects of the Code or places additional conditions/requires different materials or methods.

It takes time to figure this stuff out and just when you think you have it down, an Inspector will come along with a Code interpretation that will make your head spin... doesn't happen so often in our work but I've had that happen in residential electrical wiring...
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

John Escallier

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Re: Distance between electrical and audio cables
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2016, 12:04:19 pm »

I'm available for weddings, bar mitzvahs, and NEC consultation beginning at $250/hour.

"You may kiss the bride....but first, this excerpt from Annex C..."
The language in 400.4 and the tables that accompany it isn't particularly clear...

A part of code that isn't particularly clear..  Shirley you jest...
, but the take-away is that any cable type with a "J" in it is NOT extra-hard service.  "J" is for Junior hard service; without the J the cable is "hard service" under 400.4 and is actually "extra hard service" as referred to elsewhere in the Code.

Usage indoors puts our work under 520, "Theaters, Audience Areas of Motion Picture & Television Studios, Performance Areas, and Similar Locations."  This Article is where much confusion comes from regarding allowed cable types for certain types of assemblies (break outs, break ins, etc).

520 seems to be limited to portable stage equipment.  I suspect a mix rack of the type I use falls out of that, but 640 does cover it.
Outdoors, our work is under 525, "Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs and Similar Events."

Special Equipment (Chapter 6) potentially modifies or excepts certain uses from other aspects of the Code or places additional conditions/requires different materials or methods.

Yup, definitely agree.
It takes time to figure this stuff out and just when you think you have it down, an Inspector will come along with a Code interpretation that will make your head spin..
Tell me about it.  We not only have an AHJ, we have an entire committee.  When one gets a bee in the bonnett, it gets shall we say, "interesting".  Try shoe-horning a very large "science" machine into 392, when most of the equipment doesn't come close to code applications.

Thanks for taking the time to explain to me..I really appreciate it.

John

« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 12:06:40 pm by John Escallier »
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Re: Distance between electrical and audio cables
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2016, 12:04:19 pm »


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