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Author Topic: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II  (Read 26977 times)

John Sabine

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Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2015, 04:17:42 pm »

  Ok.. I am probably the only person on this site (possibly one of only 2 or 3 persons in the world) who actually run an Alto Line Array and I can say with complete confidence that they sound... Nice...
  They did not however sound nice when I purchased them 6 years ago, along with Alto Amps and the Alto processor. I was a Yorkville dealer and Yorkville was the North American distributor for Alto at that time and being a company man kinda guy and needing to step up from my Yorkville powered rig I purchased the 4 over 2 rig with all of the associated outboard gear. Out of the box it was obvious that the factory presets were seriously off. After trying to work with the Alto processor and discovering that it was way to limited to do what was necessary I ditched it and purchased a VTC DLMS 4080 processor. I set my rig up in an arena for a few days and worked with settings until I was satisfied that with the sound quality and limiter settings. I did a few gigs with the Alto amps but was not impressed with their clarity, power or durability (had to order a few extra because at least one was always off for repair). Finally moved the Alto amps to monitor duty and replaced them with Yorkville AP series amps, which was a big improvement.
  Once I replaced the amps I started getting gigs from people who had heard my rig at previous gigs and were impressed. The rig has done between 80 and 125 gigs per year with only two issues, one of which was not really speaker related.

July 2011: Yorkvile AP1020 Power amp that was on highs went dc direct and smoked 8 of 16 horn drivers the night before a festival. Not the speakers fault.
August 2012: Widespread magnet failure of magnet material of low frequency drivers as evidenced in this thread

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,139833.msg1298611.html#msg1298611

This was after using them heavily for close to 200 gigs.

The great thing about these cabinets is that I can use 4 per side for larger jobs or put 2 on stands per side for smaller outside or club gigs. I can also turn on the internal passive crossovers and use them with a single amp for times when I just need something for spoken word or background music

In business terms these cabinets have paid for themselves several times over since I got them, a very good thing.

Efficiency was mentioned earlier.. Here's how they compare to like size speaker cabinets.

Alto SXA28A                                       122 db continuous
Peavey Versarray 112                          123 db continuous
JBL VRX932                                         127.8 db continuous 
VTC EL208                                           126 db continuous
Renkus Heinz CFX101LA                        123 db continuous

As you can see, although they are not gonna knock your head off with output, they are in-line with other speaker offerings in their size class.

Am I recommending that someone go and buy them? NOOOOOOOOOO... I have been very happy with my speakers but as a result of Alto's very sub par customer service all of my cabinets are now loaded with 18 sound 8"  LF drivers and BMS high frequency drivers. Alto apparently had no spare drivers in the country and wanted to charge me shipping from China for any replacements I wanted to order.

Not really trying to make a point in this post, just provide some information.

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Sean Stephens

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Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
« Reply #71 on: May 28, 2015, 10:36:55 am »

Curiosity got the best of me so I decided to call seismic, i requested a product demonstration video, the material composition of the rigging an also their max weight load.  The people were very kind however their lack of knowledge struck me.  I found it strange they claimed to sell more then ******500****** boxes to over 100 clients with no returns or complaints. Either they have better quality control then meyer or someone is lying.  I spoke with the "head of technical" whatever the **** that means. They said I will have the video by the middle of next week.  I'll upload it.  That conversation made me pretty uneasy, not a company I want to trust with my reputation.  I think I am going to buy the DAS Convert 12a(s) the only problem is I really want to stay away from powered cabinets for multiple reasons, having to run more cabling, interference of the AC power, and the most important I like my crown amps with extensive dsp and flexibility.  If anyone has any suggestions or advice let me know.  I know the DAS boxes wouldn't even be comparable but I'd really rather not loose my amps, especially with the abuse we put on our cabinets, it would really be a bummer to have to replace a single $2500 cabinet.

Thanks,

Sean
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Tim Weaver

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Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
« Reply #72 on: May 28, 2015, 11:19:48 am »

Curiosity got the best of me so I decided to call seismic, i requested a product demonstration video, the material composition of the rigging an also their max weight load.  The people were very kind however their lack of knowledge struck me.  I found it strange they claimed to sell more then ******500****** boxes to over 100 clients with no returns or complaints. Either they have better quality control then meyer or someone is lying.  I spoke with the "head of technical" whatever the **** that means. They said I will have the video by the middle of next week.  I'll upload it.  That conversation made me pretty uneasy, not a company I want to trust with my reputation.  I think I am going to buy the DAS Convert 12a(s) the only problem is I really want to stay away from powered cabinets for multiple reasons, having to run more cabling, interference of the AC power, and the most important I like my crown amps with extensive dsp and flexibility.  If anyone has any suggestions or advice let me know.  I know the DAS boxes wouldn't even be comparable but I'd really rather not loose my amps, especially with the abuse we put on our cabinets, it would really be a bummer to have to replace a single $2500 cabinet.

Thanks,

Sean




Is there any other reason why you picked the DAS? If you are buying a constant curve array, and already have Crown DSP amps, the obvious choice would be the VRX. You already have the processing in your amps, and they come non-powered which by your own admission is what you prefer. The JBL name has much more rider acceptability as well....
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Sean Stephens

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Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
« Reply #73 on: May 29, 2015, 12:22:24 am »




Is there any other reason why you picked the DAS? If you are buying a constant curve array, and already have Crown DSP amps, the obvious choice would be the VRX. You already have the processing in your amps, and they come non-powered which by your own admission is what you prefer. The JBL name has much more rider acceptability as well....

Yes, thank you for your suggestion, I do not want a fixed curve though. I currently have one xti4002 and the ability to get 2 xti4002s and 2 i-tech4000s for roughly $2400.  The DAS sound amazing and have a great throw, thats really my only reasoning next to price point.  I also can get some JBL VT4888 for roughly $1500 per box with 6 available.  I was heavily considering this as well.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2015, 11:16:57 am »

Yes, thank you for your suggestion, I do not want a fixed curve though. I currently have one xti4002 and the ability to get 2 xti4002s and 2 i-tech4000s for roughly $2400.  The DAS sound amazing and have a great throw, thats really my only reasoning next to price point.  I also can get some JBL VT4888 for roughly $1500 per box with 6 available.  I was heavily considering this as well.

Sooooo I'm impressed that you can get those amps and speakers at those prices... used I-Tech 4Ks are running between $1200 and $1500 each, so two free Xti-4002s as well?!? And VT4888s will go between $3K and $3,500 each with bag and board, so I'm wondering who is letting them go for $1,500 each?!?

Anyways. The DAS Converts ARE constant curvatures, so there's no changing box angles (without some jacked up pic-n-save "angle correction bar" which someone will probably make like someone did for the VRX, which are dangerous, not accepted or approved by the manufacturer and would put you in extreme liability risk if you used it).

The 88s ARE able to have fun with angles, however, I would not consider doing *anything* less then 4 boxes per side. 4 is really pushing it; 6 would be the real world "a touring engineer isn't going to be pissed at you" deployment, but you may be able to get by with 4 if the standards are relaxed. I've used 4-box hangs of 88s, both flown and ground stacked, and it's closer to a few PS boxes (as you don't really get the true line array effect), but if it's what you have... or what the client wants to pay for.. :)

With 8 boxes of 88s, though, you get to a whole new amount of fun with amps and cabling. Plan on an amp per speaker. They're 3-way boxes, so I-Tech 4Ks for HF and MF, and then either 2 IT6K or one IT8K for LF. That's for one-4box hang, so now you need another rack (built identically) for your other hang. Because I like people going to my website, in my photo gallery, left side second picture down, there's a shot of our I-Tech racks for our VerTecs. This is a 4-amp kit that will power 4- VT4888s. Two NL8 outs... you will see other VerTec shops with NL8 4-cable looms to power the rigs, so when I do 8/side, two cables come from here and two cables come from the other rack.

And then once all that is done... rigging... motors... flybars... AC distro... cam feeder... cable ramps... Woo hoo! If you wanted to do an 88 rig right, even with 12 boxes with amps and accessories, plan on about $60-75k.

-Ray
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Tim Weaver

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Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
« Reply #75 on: May 29, 2015, 02:11:11 pm »

Yep. What he said.


Our ItechHD racks are powered up with 2 L14-30's per rack. We went that way because we have the investment in 14-30 distribution so it made sense.


OP, what kind of shows do you want to provide for with this rig? I'm sure there are other cabinets in your price range that could be a better fit.
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Sean Stephens

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Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2015, 12:58:27 am »

Sooooo I'm impressed that you can get those amps and speakers at those prices... used I-Tech 4Ks are running between $1200 and $1500 each, so two free Xti-4002s as well?!? And VT4888s will go between $3K and $3,500 each with bag and board, so I'm wondering who is letting them go for $1,500 each?!?

Anyways. The DAS Converts ARE constant curvatures, so there's no changing box angles (without some jacked up pic-n-save "angle correction bar" which someone will probably make like someone did for the VRX, which are dangerous, not accepted or approved by the manufacturer and would put you in extreme liability risk if you used it).

The 88s ARE able to have fun with angles, however, I would not consider doing *anything* less then 4 boxes per side. 4 is really pushing it; 6 would be the real world "a touring engineer isn't going to be pissed at you" deployment, but you may be able to get by with 4 if the standards are relaxed. I've used 4-box hangs of 88s, both flown and ground stacked, and it's closer to a few PS boxes (as you don't really get the true line array effect), but if it's what you have... or what the client wants to pay for.. :)

With 8 boxes of 88s, though, you get to a whole new amount of fun with amps and cabling. Plan on an amp per speaker. They're 3-way boxes, so I-Tech 4Ks for HF and MF, and then either 2 IT6K or one IT8K for LF. That's for one-4box hang, so now you need another rack (built identically) for your other hang. Because I like people going to my website, in my photo gallery, left side second picture down, there's a shot of our I-Tech racks for our VerTecs. This is a 4-amp kit that will power 4- VT4888s. Two NL8 outs... you will see other VerTec shops with NL8 4-cable looms to power the rigs, so when I do 8/side, two cables come from here and two cables come from the other rack.

And then once all that is done... rigging... motors... flybars... AC distro... cam feeder... cable ramps... Woo hoo! If you wanted to do an 88 rig right, even with 12 boxes with amps and accessories, plan on about $60-75k.

-Ray

Thats annoying I didn't even realize the das were constant, I mistook the convert for the event series, thank you for catching that!  The 88s are B grade, or manufacture refurbished.  Thats why they are cheaper, still great price.  Im so up and down with this, it'll be large clubs and outdoor events.
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Rob Spence

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Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2015, 02:28:14 pm »

If I didn't already have 4 EV QRX212 cabinets and JTR Growler subs, I would be buying a couple of Danley SM80s and some TH118s.

A couple of low end (or small series) line array boxes per side isn't gonna rock a club.


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Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2015, 02:28:14 pm »


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