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Author Topic: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line  (Read 104233 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #520 on: June 30, 2016, 05:11:21 pm »

Is anybody familiar with this guy...? Hubbell 5200

I'd buy one to take apart but they're like $65  ??? ???

Looks like an LED version of the 3 lamp tester.

JR

Bump, no one has seen one of these?

JR
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Mike Sokol

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #521 on: July 01, 2016, 02:16:09 pm »

Bump, no one has seen one of these?

JR

How many do you want? I'll send an inquiry to Hubble and see if they'll send each of us a few to experiment on.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #522 on: July 01, 2016, 02:43:36 pm »

How many do you want? I'll send an inquiry to Hubble and see if they'll send each of us a few to experiment on.
If you can get your hands on one, just test it for RPBG.  My suspicion is that it is just an LED version of the old neon lamp outlet testers, so will act the same wrt RPBG, but i don't know without testing. I am too cheap to pay the going price for what I think is inside there.

They look like they just built their tester into one of their standard plugs. I am more interested if they are doing something different, but their test table looks similar.

I probably need to talk to them, let me know if you raise somebody there who knows about the product. (Years ago I lived one town over from where they are located in CT).

JR
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #523 on: July 03, 2016, 03:24:31 pm »

Now idea how, or even if.
From Amazon
5.0 out of 5 starsThis has become my favorite quick circuit checker
By Alak on March 5, 2016
Worked two to three rock shows a week at a major venue. The house electricians wired a power distribution panel. The panel was used for an entire year by visiting attractions. Each time the road electrician would take his circuit tester out and found no problems. A year into the panels use, a visiting electrician plugged his Hubbell 5200 in and found the panel was miss wired. After removing the cover, sure enough. The neutral and ground were reversed. This has become my favorite quick circuit checker.
https://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-Wiring-Systems-Straight-Grounding/dp/B000N9L598
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #524 on: July 03, 2016, 03:56:40 pm »

Now idea how, or even if.
From Amazon
5.0 out of 5 starsThis has become my favorite quick circuit checker
By Alak on March 5, 2016
Worked two to three rock shows a week at a major venue. The house electricians wired a power distribution panel. The panel was used for an entire year by visiting attractions. Each time the road electrician would take his circuit tester out and found no problems. A year into the panels use, a visiting electrician plugged his Hubbell 5200 in and found the panel was miss wired. After removing the cover, sure enough. The neutral and ground were reversed. This has become my favorite quick circuit checker.
https://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-Wiring-Systems-Straight-Grounding/dp/B000N9L598
Hubbell makes no such claim about being able to detect neutral- ground reversed.

From a different amazon review
Quote
"Although this is a super well made (albeit pricey) tester, it has the same failing as most three prong testers. There are wiring errors that can't be detected by this - or any other three prong tester."

That is my suspicion too (doesn't detect RPBG), but until i get hands on I can't say that.

If anything they may be yet another candidate for my technology.


JR
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Mike Sokol

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #525 on: July 03, 2016, 07:59:36 pm »

Now idea how, or even if.
From Amazon
5.0 out of 5 starsThis has become my favorite quick circuit checker
By Alak on March 5, 2016
Worked two to three rock shows a week at a major venue. The house electricians wired a power distribution panel. The panel was used for an entire year by visiting attractions. Each time the road electrician would take his circuit tester out and found no problems. A year into the panels use, a visiting electrician plugged his Hubbell 5200 in and found the panel was miss wired. After removing the cover, sure enough. The neutral and ground were reversed. This has become my favorite quick circuit checker.
https://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-Wiring-Systems-Straight-Grounding/dp/B000N9L598

There's no simple way to find swapped neutral and ground wiring since you need a secondary ground reference PLUS be able load the circuit with enough amperage to create a measurable voltage drop in the lines. I'm sure their 5200 tester can't do this. In fact, I've never seen a product (no matter how expensive) that can detect a swapped ground and neutral automatically.

One thing that a swapped G-N does do is create a really big ground loop current that varies with the load. And that can create a variable hum in a sound system with the pin-1 problem. Don't get me started on a discussion about GLID (Ground Loop Inter=modulation Distortion) since you all think I'm crazy. But I'm going to build a demonstration of the GLID phenomenon that I believe contributes to "fuzzy bass" in sound systems with swapped G-N wiring in their power distro.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 08:06:52 pm by Mike Sokol »
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #526 on: July 03, 2016, 11:45:16 pm »

There's no simple way to find swapped neutral and ground wiring since you need a secondary ground reference PLUS be able load the circuit with enough amperage to create a measurable voltage drop in the lines. I'm sure their 5200 tester can't do this. In fact, I've never seen a product (no matter how expensive) that can detect a swapped ground and neutral automatically.


People have a tendency to not think through what is actually happening with a ground and neutral.  Ultimately, they are 2 wires with different purposes that eventually connect to the same place at the service.  Yes, with a load you can see a voltage drop-but it will drop on which ever wire the load is connected to-whether it is the ground or the neutral.  If you load an adjacent receptacle on the same circuit, you might be able to tell that the 2 receptacles are wired the same -or different, but it would be difficult to tell which one is right.  A bootleg ground would be relatively easy to see, as both the neutral and the ground pin on the receptacle would see the same voltage drop.

There is nothing magical about neutrals and grounds-it is simple physics and ohms law applies equally to each circuit.  If you assume that the building is wired mostly correctly and you are dealing with a circuit fed from subpanel and there is a significant load on the subpanel at the time of the test, in theory, the wire whose potential is closer to the hot should be the neutral-since neutral feeding the subpanel would have some voltage drop on it.

There are simply too many unknown parameters when all you are doing is looking at the face of an edison receptacle and trying to decide of the ground and neutral are reversed.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #527 on: July 04, 2016, 01:35:11 am »

For human safety ground and neutral reversed are a secondary risk.

Hum is a cosmetic complaint that doesn't kill people.

JR
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Mike Sokol

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #528 on: July 04, 2016, 02:17:36 pm »

For human safety ground and neutral reversed are a secondary risk.

Hum is a cosmetic complaint that doesn't kill people.

JR

But my position is that ground loop hum makes musicians and technicians do stupid things, such as cutting off the ground pins in the power cord or using a $1 ground adapter from Lowes. That's when it gets dangerous. 
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #529 on: July 04, 2016, 02:31:14 pm »

But my position is that ground loop hum makes musicians and technicians do stupid things, such as cutting off the ground pins in the power cord or using a $1 ground adapter from Lowes. That's when it gets dangerous.
They make DIY testers (injecting a 60Hz current into ground) to help identify poorly designed old gear with pin 1 problems. If you can't fix them, they should be retired.

JR
  [edit]   http://pin1problem.com/as032.pdf  here is a link to a Jensen paper on how to make a pin one tester.    [/edit]
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 03:36:26 pm by John Roberts {JR} »
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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #529 on: July 04, 2016, 02:31:14 pm »


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