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Author Topic: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line  (Read 104126 times)

frank kayser

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #500 on: May 24, 2016, 11:29:46 am »

Me too.
I've expressed my desire before.  Fingers are still crossed.


Let's put a different twist on the next question.
In other posts, there was discussion of a stinger cap somewhere in the ground line, possibly a stage-stringer.
How does your tester respond should the stinger be in place between the wall power and the tester?  I can see maybe running a stringer with a stinger cap and plugging the tester into the stringer along the way.  Would your tester see the ground potential the same?
frank



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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #501 on: May 24, 2016, 12:16:13 pm »

I've expressed my desire before.  Fingers are still crossed.


Let's put a different twist on the next question.
In other posts, there was discussion of a stinger cap somewhere in the ground line, possibly a stage-stringer.
How does your tester respond should the stinger be in place between the wall power and the tester?  I can see maybe running a stringer with a stinger cap and plugging the tester into the stringer along the way.  Would your tester see the ground potential the same?
frank

Why speculate when I can empirically determine the result?

Yes, a 0.15uF stinger cap in series with safety ground still indicates a good ground present with both the POS 3-lamp tester, and my OD-1.

0.15uF is the johnny approved stinger cap value, large enough to trip a GFCI, but small enough to prevent harm to humans. If you want to really do it right use a Y2 rated cap.

digikey has onesies for $3.50  http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/kemet/PME271YE6150KR30/399-12419-ND/5730910
 
JR

PS: I really like the idea of stinger cap GFCI power drop and will discuss this with UL if I ever engage a human there. First things first...
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Don't tune your drums half-ass. Listen to what a properly "cleared" drum sounds like.   http://circularscience.com/

frank kayser

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #502 on: May 24, 2016, 09:41:37 pm »

Why speculate when I can empirically determine the result?

Yes, a 0.15uF stinger cap in series with safety ground still indicates a good ground present with both the POS 3-lamp tester, and my OD-1.

0.15uF is the johnny approved stinger cap value, large enough to trip a GFCI, but small enough to prevent harm to humans. If you want to really do it right use a Y2 rated cap.

digikey has onesies for $3.50  http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/kemet/PME271YE6150KR30/399-12419-ND/5730910
 
JR

PS: I really like the idea of stinger cap GFCI power drop and will discuss this with UL if I ever engage a human there. First things first...
Thanks, JR.  Good luck finding a human...
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #503 on: May 25, 2016, 01:44:45 pm »

I actually talked to a human from UL today so progress,,, I guess asking them for a quote triggered a response.  ;D

The guy I talked to wasn't very technical. He said they wanted to classify my product as lab equipment? I don't agree but he is setting up a conference call with some more technical people so we can move this forward.

He sounded receptive to accepting the already approved plug as an UL approved sub-assembly, so if true that could reduce my testing costs.

Another step forward.  8)

JR
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Don't tune your drums half-ass. Listen to what a properly "cleared" drum sounds like.   http://circularscience.com/

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #504 on: June 08, 2016, 02:42:02 pm »

As I feared I received the quote for UL to begin testing my OD-1. $10,600 to open a file. Plus more charges associated with testing.

I need to soak this in beer for a while, before cutting that check... Lets see, if i sell them for $100 ea I only need to sell a couple hundred. :-[ but that's too expensive. I wouldn't pay that.   

Before I go down this expensive rabbit hole, I need to ask this community again for more possible leads that I should approach to produce these, instead of me.

JR
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Don't tune your drums half-ass. Listen to what a properly "cleared" drum sounds like.   http://circularscience.com/

frank kayser

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #505 on: June 08, 2016, 04:30:54 pm »

As I feared I received the quote for UL to begin testing my OD-1. $10,600 to open a file. Plus more charges associated with testing.

I need to soak this in beer for a while, before cutting that check... Lets see, if i sell them for $100 ea I only need to sell a couple hundred. :-[ but that's too expensive. I wouldn't pay that.   

Before I go down this expensive rabbit hole, I need to ask this community again for more possible leads that I should approach to produce these, instead of me.

JR
Ouch!  Some type of croud-sourcing like Kickstarter?  SharkTank?  West Texas Investors Club?
frank
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Tom Roche

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #506 on: June 08, 2016, 06:06:01 pm »

As I feared I received the quote for UL to begin testing my OD-1. $10,600 to open a file. Plus more charges associated with testing.

I need to soak this in beer for a while, before cutting that check... Lets see, if i sell them for $100 ea I only need to sell a couple hundred. :-[ but that's too expensive. I wouldn't pay that.   

Before I go down this expensive rabbit hole, I need to ask this community again for more possible leads that I should approach to produce these, instead of me.

JR

Wow, that seems especially costly to test such a small device.  Will UL provide a breakdown of the costs or is it largely a "pay to play" thing?  Have you considered checking with one or more of the competing Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories?  Granted, the other NRTLs don't enjoy the name recognition that UL does, but it might save you a few pennies.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #507 on: June 08, 2016, 06:15:09 pm »

Ouch!  Some type of croud-sourcing like Kickstarter?  SharkTank?  West Texas Investors Club?
frank
Sorry if i wasn't clear... I actually have that much capital I could spend, but I question how wise that would be (I'm old and tired).  The only thing worse than spending my own money that way is spending other people's money that way.

I don't literally want a business partner, or investor.. I've been there and done that. I don't want to start a(nother) company from scratch just to merchandise this.

I have developed a product idea, and proved that the concept works. I have even satisfied myself that the design "could" be UL approved, but then what? I would have to manufacture at least few hundred to get economic production volume, then develop distribution to sell these through, and then manage that distribution to gat paid in time to pay for building the next batch, etc... I have done the small company rat race before and in my judgement this is too much overhead for one low priced SKU that can't support that much sales marketing, distribution overhead, by itself and still remain cost effective.

This needs to be some established test equipment company's Nth piece of test equipment added to an existing line of testers, that they can sell through existing distribution.

Even better they need to tool up a custom package which will match the rest of their product line (another couple $10k).

To be clear, I am NOT looking for capital investment in me, I am looking for a company already in the business that could benefit from investing in their own new outlet tester product (that actually works). I am willing to share the technology, while if I am willing to give it away completely free, it will by definition be worth nothing. I am not greedy, and really believe in this product, so am motivated to work with almost anybody. 

JR
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Don't tune your drums half-ass. Listen to what a properly "cleared" drum sounds like.   http://circularscience.com/

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #508 on: June 08, 2016, 06:31:01 pm »

Wow, that seems especially costly to test such a small device.  Will UL provide a breakdown of the costs or is it largely a "pay to play" thing?  Have you considered checking with one or more of the competing Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories?  Granted, the other NRTLs don't enjoy the name recognition that UL does, but it might save you a few pennies.
I do not want to flame UL they are a large established organization doing good work. I knew going in that this would be expensive. The quotation reads like $10.6k + travel and + yadda yadda... I need to talk to other companies who have gone through this process to get an idea of how much the yadda yadda is, or could be in practice.

UL is never going to be cheap because they are where the buck stops, when it comes to human safety. When that musician got electrocuted by a RPBG outlet while playing Peavey guitars, UL was with Peavey in court as expert witnesses defending that the Peavey products were safe.   

JR

PS: I did approach a cheaper testing laboratory and they declined to even quote on my project. Testing outlet testers is probably not a high volume business for UL.
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Don't tune your drums half-ass. Listen to what a properly "cleared" drum sounds like.   http://circularscience.com/

Scott Holtzman

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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #509 on: June 09, 2016, 01:39:29 am »

I do not want to flame UL they are a large established organization doing good work. I knew going in that this would be expensive. The quotation reads like $10.6k + travel and + yadda yadda... I need to talk to other companies who have gone through this process to get an idea of how much the yadda yadda is, or could be in practice.

UL is never going to be cheap because they are where the buck stops, when it comes to human safety. When that musician got electrocuted by a RPBG outlet while playing Peavey guitars, UL was with Peavey in court as expert witnesses defending that the Peavey products were safe.   

JR

PS: I did approach a cheaper testing laboratory and they declined to even quote on my project. Testing outlet testers is probably not a high volume business for UL.

The U is for Underwriters, an insurance term.  I never quite thought of the connection until you made this post so I went and read the history of UL and I didn't see any ties to the insurance industry.

A curiosity. 
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Re: brain storm an optimal human safety system for back line
« Reply #509 on: June 09, 2016, 01:39:29 am »


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