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[Ivan Beaver]

Application would be completely different -  wide dispersion short throw

The 12cxn driver is limited to 80° wide by the natural dispersion of the horn in the throat of the driver.

So I would not call that "wide", but closer to a "normal"l pattern

You will not be able to get it wider-at least not without some compromises somewhere.

[Bill Hornibrook]

80 degrees conical would be wide enough I think.

[Peter Morris]

One of the huge advantages to the Synergy horn (that the industry just seems to want to forget) is the large horn that loads all the freq bands.

What this provides is pattern control down to a low freq.

What this offers in sound quality is keeping the sound where it needs to be and away from where it should not be,  makes for an overall cleaner/cleaner sound-due to less reflective energy.

You simply cannot get that with a small cabinet-despite what the specs might "imply".

Absolutely … and this is exactly what I have tried to achieve in the smallest space possible.
 
As you know, the ability of a horn to control its pattern is related to its dimensions.  For a horn to maintain, for example a pattern of 90 x 45, it needs to be twice as high as it is wide. Surprisingly most are the other way around.  As a result, towards the low end of their operating range many horns exhibit pattern flip when the vertical pattern exceeds the horizontal pattern.

In this particular case my box is all horn loaded. Its mouth is 935mm high; that’s 260mm taller than your SM96HO.  As a result it should maintain it vertical pattern lower than a SM96HO.  The price for doing what I have done is that it requires a separate HF horn and its vertical pattern gets a little more than I would like around 1000Hz. (The HF horn runs down to about 650Hz).

The horizontal pattern is as good as I have seen. As an indicator of how well it behaves it will produce a 500Hz square wave on and off both its vertical and horizontal axis … very very few speakers can do that.
 
I have taken some time to compare the directivity of this box with what is commercially available, and I think it looks very good.

I would love to see some directivity plots for your SM96HO …. Other than my issue with its size and weight, the SM96HO looks like an amazing box.

I must confess my goal in some way was to get as much of the performance the SM96HO offers in a 30Kg box, something that could be pole mounted. Unlike the SM96Ho it didn't have to go below 100Hz and there are a few more compromises, but concept seems to work. Everyone that has heard it is amazed at the sound quality.

The biggest compromise for this DIY is the cost of the components … ouch …!

[John Halliburton]

coaxial cabs are nothing new, but one with this performance is a big deal. It would be easy to imitate this speaker, not likely so easy to duplicate the performance.

http://www.parts-express.com/bc-10ncx-10-neodymium-coaxial-speaker--294-685

Not sure why you've quoted me on this-I'm well aware of the way the SM80 sounds and works, as well as the current state of coaxial driver quality in the industry-I've been using BMS 12" coax wedges for close to five years that myself and Curtis List designed.

Best regards,

John

[John Halliburton]

Has anyone done anything like that? Thoughts? I see nothing out there commercially.

Been using these for almost five years now.  Curtis List and I designed them, they have a pole cup on one end so you can use them as small top speakers for FOH.  Weogo Reed down in N. Carolina has four of them too.  This is the third generation coax wedge I've built, earlier versions used B&C drivers, these use the BMS neo 12" coax.

Best regards,

John

[Goerge Thomas]

Been using these for almost five years now.  Curtis List and I designed them, they have a pole cup on one end so you can use them as small top speakers for FOH.  Weogo Reed down in N. Carolina has four of them too.  This is the third generation coax wedge I've built, earlier versions used B&C drivers, these use the BMS neo 12" coax.

Best regards,

John

I love the look of that wedge and the idea behind it. Would that be something you could PM me plans to? or is it a patent designed thing you would not wish to share?

My main goal here was to try and create am SM80 like box with a 12 inch coax driver like the BMS driver. I like the idea of the single point source. Seems easier to create an SM80 box than a larger multi driver synergy horn box. Fiberglass horn. Driver. Box. bi amp and spends hours with a DSP and measurement mic tuning, boom. Nothing is that easy obviously but seems more doable than trying to create a clone of an SH50 or something.

I feel as if you could create this kind of box without too much trial and error. The crossover section is the interesting portion I wouldn't understand. Fiberglassing the horn itself should be doable if you took a mold of an SM80s front.

Also, Ivan, this is obviously for DIY sake, not resale or anything of the sort. People pay for Danley's quality, finish, fit, support and tested and true product. A guy like me in a garage playing with speakers is who DIY is made for. May look a little ugly and take a while to try and test and be heavier and may be only 70-% or less of the performance of a true SM80 but to someone like me that's good enough if it's something I've put my own hands on. I'm currently using QRX 212s for tops.

This has been a fun thread.

[Steve M Smith]

Like George, I would appreciate seeing plans for that wedge too - although I totally understand if you don't want to share it.


Steve.

[Peter Morris]

Like George, I would appreciate seeing plans for that wedge too - although I totally understand if you don't want to share it.


Steve.

For those that have not seen it ... BMS coaxial wedge plans.

https://soundforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3192&d=1330353155

[Ivan Beaver]

 
As you know, the ability of a horn to control its pattern is related to its dimensions.  For a horn to maintain, for example a pattern of 90 x 45, it needs to be twice as high as it is wide. Surprisingly most are the other way around.  As a result, towards the low end of their operating range many horns exhibit pattern flip when the vertical pattern exceeds the horizontal pattern.

In this particular case my box is all horn loaded. Its mouth is 935mm high; that’s 260mm taller than your SM96HO.  As a result it should maintain it vertical pattern lower than a SM96HO.  The price for doing what I have done is that it requires a separate HF horn and its vertical pattern gets a little more than I would like around 1000Hz. (The HF horn runs down to about 650Hz).

The horizontal pattern is as good as I have seen. As an indicator of how well it behaves it will produce a 500Hz square wave on and off both its vertical and horizontal axis … very very few speakers can do that.
 
I have taken some time to compare the directivity of this box with what is commercially available, and I think it looks very good.

I would love to see some directivity plots for your SM96HO …. Other than my issue with its size and weight, the SM96HO looks like an amazing box.

I must confess my goal in some way was to get as much of the performance the SM96HO offers in a 30Kg box, something that could be pole mounted. Unlike the SM96Ho it didn't have to go below 100Hz and there are a few more compromises, but concept seems to work. Everyone that has heard it is amazed at the sound quality.

The biggest compromise for this DIY is the cost of the components … ouch …!

You are totally correct about pattern flip.  A good number of our boxes are "built correctly" (meaning the vertical is a lot taller than the horizontal) and others are not.

The reason they are not is form factor for the intended usage.

For example the SH95 is as you describe (subject to pattern flip).  It is most often used as a down fill box.

However if it was the "proper dimensions" nobody would use it this way because ti would stick down to far. 

That is a "internal battle" we fight with each other in the design of a new product-proper performance vs what people will actually buy.

sadly most people don't understand pattern flip or the implications.

I am not sure which model you are referring to as the SM96HO.  We don't make a model with that number.  We have a SM96 and a SH96HO.

While the patterns are the same-they are very different sizes and weight and outputs.

You can download the CLF data from the individual product pages on the website and see not only the directivity plot but also a balloon that you can move around and look at any freq you want from any position you want.

You can also see traditional polar plots with the horizontal and vertical overlaid at any freq you want.

[John Halliburton]

Like George, I would appreciate seeing plans for that wedge too - although I totally understand if you don't want to share it.


Steve.

Yeah, it's available as a finished product only, the cabinet is fully CNC machined 18mm Baltic Birch and all that 100% road worthy pro audio stuff.  Get in touch if that interests either of you, otherwise, the Smithers plans as noted here are available at that other pro audio forum. 

Thanks for the kind words though, they have been well received.

Best regards,

John

[ProSoundWeb Community]