ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7   Go Down

Author Topic: Feedback through FOH last night.  (Read 14366 times)

Bob Leonard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6807
  • Boston, MA USA
Re: Feedback through FOH last night.
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2014, 03:25:11 pm »

Debbie,
I've said in prior posts that there can be times when a compressor can and will act as a limiter of sorts. The signal will be held down at peak volumes however the attack and release settings don't act quickly enough and feedback is induced. Setting the attack and release introduces other undesirable effects such as cutting off the vocal, pumping, etc..

Personally I stay away from using a compressor on vocals unless there is a really good reason to use one, and then I'll use it very sparingly, almost to the point where you don't know the compressor is being used at all. I recommend you pursue the art of not using a compressor on vocals. An easy starting point will be to determine who sings lead and who sings backup, find the highest level for the lead and set the backup mics accordingly. Good luck my dear and have fun.
Logged
BOSTON STRONG........
Proud Vietnam Veteran

I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

Debbie Dunkley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5244
  • Central North Carolina
Re: Feedback through FOH last night.
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2014, 03:39:58 pm »

Again, not trying to cause a riot, but panning things across the stage wont cause something panned right to not be heard on the left (until you get into really big and especially wide sound fields). The level may be down a bit but isn't that kinda the way it should be naturally?
The feedback issue must be something between channel gain, threshold and makeup gain somewhere - keep tweakin till it works...

I understand Jeff and I agree. However, the very nature of  panning to one side whether a small amount or more will of course reduce the level on the other side and I always want to make sure the vocals don't get lost. Probably due to the fact I was singer for years and years and struggled to really cut through the mix due to either lack of rig or very loud guitar players !!

Gonna play with the comp settings a bit more to see if I can get better results.
Logged
A young child says to his mother, "Mom, when I grow up I'm going to be a musician." She replies, "Well honey, you know you can't do both."

Debbie Dunkley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5244
  • Central North Carolina
Re: Feedback through FOH last night.
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2014, 03:53:58 pm »

Debbie,
I've said in prior posts that there can be times when a compressor can and will act as a limiter of sorts. The signal will be held down at peak volumes however the attack and release settings don't act quickly enough and feedback is induced. Setting the attack and release introduces other undesirable effects such as cutting off the vocal, pumping, etc..

Personally I stay away from using a compressor on vocals unless there is a really good reason to use one, and then I'll use it very sparingly, almost to the point where you don't know the compressor is being used at all. I recommend you pursue the art of not using a compressor on vocals. An easy starting point will be to determine who sings lead and who sings backup, find the highest level for the lead and set the backup mics accordingly. Good luck my dear and have fun.

Thanks Bob…...I too have always been very shy of using compression and for the most part hardly used it at all over the years.
I had only used this method of setting comp on the vocal channels of this particular band due to the harmony mixes never sounding quite right and trying to get a better blend of levels without guessing which vocal was which. I doubt anyone could have guessed I was even using it - I was being so conservative.
This is why I was surprised this occurred last night - it had never been a problem till then. But as it definitely did the trick when I removed it, comp was the culprit. I really am surprised though.

This has been mentioned and I also agree that a little better mic control would help a lot. My monitors are nice and loud and clear so there is no excuse fro the musicians not to be able to hear themselves.
When I used to sing, if I sounded louder than I should, I would back off…if I was sitting a little low in the mix, I would get closer. Not sure why others don't seem to be bale to grasp this concept and  respond in the same way…..I think I'll suggest to hubby to make that suggestion to his band mates…  ;)
Logged
A young child says to his mother, "Mom, when I grow up I'm going to be a musician." She replies, "Well honey, you know you can't do both."

frank kayser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1480
  • Maryland suburbs of Washington DC
Re: Feedback through FOH last night.
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2014, 05:51:42 pm »

<snip>
When I used to sing, if I sounded louder than I should, I would back off…if I was sitting a little low in the mix, I would get closer. Not sure why others don't seem to be bale to grasp this concept and  respond in the same way…..I think I'll suggest to hubby to make that suggestion to his band mates…  ;)
Some folks never get those subtleties that seem so obvious to me (or you).  Kind of like backing off a bit on the rhythm guitar when a vocal or guitar solo.  Some folks just keep banging away...  Chalk it up to enthusiasm?
Good troubleshooting, finding the problem.  Were you able to isolate it any further? A single mic?  Also, you gated the drum - could that have been a contributor?  Scientific method?
I agree with the group in general, make-up gain may have been an issue along with the attack/release settings - I worked with an Ashley compressor that was great, but when the release kicked in, the feedback would start.  Counter intuitive...
I rarely add any make up gain at all unless the singer has a great dynamic range - the makeup is to keep the quiet portions in the mix, yet compress the shouts.


As for false starts on the fast fingers on the wrong faders - see if you can work out which pair of voices switch parts the most often, and keep those soloed in the cans - may help a bit.


Also since it's your hubby's band (and you have an inside line on the workings) maybe you could get an annotated set list on who is singing what parts.


Now, if you think the singing parts are confusing, try two Chapman Sticks in the same band - both in stereo - and figure out who is playing what when.  WooHoo!  Sometimes you get it right - sometimes just close...


frank
Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: Feedback through FOH last night.
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2014, 06:20:27 pm »

What frequency (range) was the feedback?  Have you tried using the RTA function to help identify the range?
Did you do any system ring-out when you set up?
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Steve Garris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1428
Re: Feedback through FOH last night.
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2014, 06:40:37 pm »

Debbie, your gig sounds like one I had a month ago. I had 8 people on stage, multiple instruments and singers, and the house was giving me fits. I pulled my monitors back, which did not make the singers happy, but the hard walls in the room were giving me a lot of feedback, at many frequencies. My EQ was a total mess by midway through the show, and I ended up just having to turn the whole thing down.

After reading your post, I was recalling that I had to use a little more compression than I usually do on a couple of the singers. I'm now thinking this may have been my issue.

Thanks for posting, and don't sweat it, we all have these nights.
Logged

Debbie Dunkley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5244
  • Central North Carolina
Re: Feedback through FOH last night.
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2014, 06:42:42 pm »

Some folks never get those subtleties that seem so obvious to me (or you).  Kind of like backing off a bit on the rhythm guitar when a vocal or guitar solo.  Some folks just keep banging away...  Chalk it up to enthusiasm?
Good troubleshooting, finding the problem.  Were you able to isolate it any further? A single mic?  Also, you gated the drum - could that have been a contributor?  Scientific method?
I agree with the group in general, make-up gain may have been an issue along with the attack/release settings - I worked with an Ashley compressor that was great, but when the release kicked in, the feedback would start.  Counter intuitive...
I rarely add any make up gain at all unless the singer has a great dynamic range - the makeup is to keep the quiet portions in the mix, yet compress the shouts.


As for false starts on the fast fingers on the wrong faders - see if you can work out which pair of voices switch parts the most often, and keep those soloed in the cans - may help a bit.


Also since it's your hubby's band (and you have an inside line on the workings) maybe you could get an annotated set list on who is singing what parts.


Now, if you think the singing parts are confusing, try two Chapman Sticks in the same band - both in stereo - and figure out who is playing what when.  WooHoo!  Sometimes you get it right - sometimes just close...


frank

You are right Frank, I do have an 'in' so maybe I could get a better idea of who is singing what and when…. Thanks .
Logged
A young child says to his mother, "Mom, when I grow up I'm going to be a musician." She replies, "Well honey, you know you can't do both."

Debbie Dunkley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5244
  • Central North Carolina
Re: Feedback through FOH last night.
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2014, 06:49:11 pm »

What frequency (range) was the feedback?  Have you tried using the RTA function to help identify the range?
Did you do any system ring-out when you set up?

You know what Dick, each time I tried to push the frequency I figured it was, I couldn't really get it to feedback. It was happening outside of that. It seemed to be around 800hz or so I think. I pulled that one down a bit anyway and same around 1200hz for good measure…just one of the earlier solutions I tried.

System ring -out……..mmm……..sadly it was one of those gigs where we could'nt get in till late and we were going crazy trying to get set up on time. I had to roll with things bit and rely on my scene memory and quick room adjust…So much so that in the end the guys had a 60 sec sound check and that was it !! That didn't help things either !!
Logged
A young child says to his mother, "Mom, when I grow up I'm going to be a musician." She replies, "Well honey, you know you can't do both."

Debbie Dunkley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5244
  • Central North Carolina
Re: Feedback through FOH last night.
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2014, 06:52:26 pm »

Debbie, your gig sounds like one I had a month ago. I had 8 people on stage, multiple instruments and singers, and the house was giving me fits. I pulled my monitors back, which did not make the singers happy, but the hard walls in the room were giving me a lot of feedback, at many frequencies. My EQ was a total mess by midway through the show, and I ended up just having to turn the whole thing down.

After reading your post, I was recalling that I had to use a little more compression than I usually do on a couple of the singers. I'm now thinking this may have been my issue.

Thanks for posting, and don't sweat it, we all have these nights.

Thanks Steve…this is why even if something seems like a simple problem, I post anyway because many times I have done as you did and read something weeks after I had a similar situation and it has given me good info… If in fact this is what happened to you too - you are welcome LOL…..
Logged
A young child says to his mother, "Mom, when I grow up I'm going to be a musician." She replies, "Well honey, you know you can't do both."

Jeff Carter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 363
  • Kitchener, ON, Canada
Re: Feedback through FOH last night.
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2014, 07:02:53 pm »

I agree with the group in general, make-up gain may have been an issue along with the attack/release settings - I worked with an Ashley compressor that was great, but when the release kicked in, the feedback would start.  Counter intuitive...
I rarely add any make up gain at all unless the singer has a great dynamic range - the makeup is to keep the quiet portions in the mix, yet compress the shouts.

Frank, I like to think of it as the compressor release adding extra gain (compared to when the vocalist is singing and the compressor's gain reduction kicks in). As you observe, the extra gain added when the compressor releases can be enough to cause feedback if the main PA makes it back into the mics.

Just a minor nitpick, though.... gain is gain and there's nothing special about adding makeup gain in the compressor, compared to adding it with the fader or mic preamp. Turn down the makeup gain 5 dB and push up the preamp or fader by the same amount and you're right back where you started.
Logged
Mothers, don't let your babies grow up to be physics PhDs

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Feedback through FOH last night.
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2014, 07:02:53 pm »


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.033 seconds with 21 queries.