ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?  (Read 16404 times)

Nate Howell

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
(8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« on: November 23, 2014, 10:58:16 am »

I am considering investing in an L Acoustics Kara line array.
I like the idea of easy portability with the single 18" subs. Much of my current work will be for electronic events where I may not need a large amount of tops to fill a room, (perhaps 3 kara tops per side) but the bass requirement will be more than normal for say, a live music show. 

Much of this work and setup will be performed by 1 person (myself).

I have also been told by a dealer that (2) SB18 will have slightly more output than (1) SB28.

Thoughts?
Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20522
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 10:06:53 pm »

I am considering investing in an L Acoustics Kara line array.
I like the idea of easy portability with the single 18" subs. Much of my current work will be for electronic events where I may not need a large amount of tops to fill a room, (perhaps 3 kara tops per side) but the bass requirement will be more than normal for say, a live music show. 

Much of this work and setup will be performed by 1 person (myself).

I have also been told by a dealer that (2) SB18 will have slightly more output than (1) SB28.

Thoughts?

You need enough line array to cover the depth and height of the "audience geometry."  3 per side will be woefully ineffective in doing so for all but the most compact of audience areas.

Line array systems do NOT work like you are accustomed to using traditional "point and shoot" loudspeakers.  You would be better served by almost any such professional speaker and probably pay less, too.
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Caleb Dueck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 10:33:38 pm »

From memory, the 28's are tuned to give deeper extension rather than highest SPL.

The way I understand it, and could be off here, is that the 18's are intended to be flown with the tops, to extend the low corner.  No haystack, just flat to around 45 Hz or so, fed from the main bus.  Then the 28's are fed from an aux, haystacked, and used more for an effect.

3 KARA per hang is not a line array, sounds like you need a good point source system instead. 
Logged
Experience is something you get right after you need it.

Richard Turner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 01:12:37 am »

http://www.l-acoustics.com/products-kara-85.html
http://www.l-acoustics.com/admin/product_files/EN_KARA_SPS_EN_2-1.pdf

I think you will find once you get deeper into the purchase process they will pressure you to take the training seminar and purchase the complete system, 12/4 plus flyware and processing and amplifaction as well as 3d modelling software.....

But I could certainly be incorrect in that.
Logged
Looking at retiring. Local PA market has shrank to 2 guys with guitars and bose l1 compacts or expecting full line array and 16 movers on stage for $300... no middle left going back to event DJ stuff, half the work for twice the pay.

Nate Howell

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2014, 09:17:36 pm »

From memory, the 28's are tuned to give deeper extension rather than highest SPL.

The way I understand it, and could be off here, is that the 18's are intended to be flown with the tops, to extend the low corner.  No haystack, just flat to around 45 Hz or so, fed from the main bus.  Then the 28's are fed from an aux, haystacked, and used more for an effect.

3 KARA per hang is not a line array, sounds like you need a good point source system instead.


I understand that 3 Kara is not what is recommended for flying the system.
However, I already have point source boxes, and I want to get into a line array.

The events that I do for electronic music are somewhat unique in that I need wide horizontal, but not so much vertical. Many of the places are bars, or warehouse parties with low ceilings, but wide area for dancing.

My thoughts were to maybe stack 3-4 kara on top of 2-3 subs per side.
If I stick with the kara system, (Or any versatile line array), I can simply add to it as I get other work.
There is plenty of outdoor concerts, and events where line arrays are specd, and I am quite sure I can get some of the work.

On the other hand, if I just buy a few 12" or 15" boxes, (even L Acoustics), I highly doubt I would rent them as often as needed, because the rider work is going to ask for a line array, and I won't have one.
Logged

Nate Howell

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2014, 09:20:55 pm »

http://www.l-acoustics.com/products-kara-85.html
http://www.l-acoustics.com/admin/product_files/EN_KARA_SPS_EN_2-1.pdf

I think you will find once you get deeper into the purchase process they will pressure you to take the training seminar and purchase the complete system, 12/4 plus flyware and processing and amplifaction as well as 3d modelling software.....

But I could certainly be incorrect in that.

Yes, depending on the size of a system, one dealer already mentioned that L Acoustics requires you to be trained on any of the K systems.
Logged

Richard Turner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2014, 06:55:05 pm »

I think as you go further into the purchase process you will likely be steered towards the ARCS product which is a constant curve system. Then again I don't know much.
Logged
Looking at retiring. Local PA market has shrank to 2 guys with guitars and bose l1 compacts or expecting full line array and 16 movers on stage for $300... no middle left going back to event DJ stuff, half the work for twice the pay.

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20522
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2014, 07:44:26 pm »


I understand that 3 Kara is not what is recommended for flying the system.
However, I already have point source boxes, and I want to get into a line array.

The events that I do for electronic music are somewhat unique in that I need wide horizontal, but not so much vertical. Many of the places are bars, or warehouse parties with low ceilings, but wide area for dancing.

My thoughts were to maybe stack 3-4 kara on top of 2-3 subs per side.
If I stick with the kara system, (Or any versatile line array), I can simply add to it as I get other work.
There is plenty of outdoor concerts, and events where line arrays are specd, and I am quite sure I can get some of the work.

On the other hand, if I just buy a few 12" or 15" boxes, (even L Acoustics), I highly doubt I would rent them as often as needed, because the rider work is going to ask for a line array, and I won't have one.

I think you need to understand that 3 pieces of a "line array" stacked on a subwoofer is LESS of a system that almost any professional tarp box rig.  If you do this I expect your subsequent post to be about kick bins... because 3 pieces of Kara doesn't have the meat from 80-160Hz that you will probably need.

3 boxes is not a line array, either.  It's 3 boxes.. maybe a "dash" rather than a "line".  There are uses for dash arrays but ground stacked on top of subs ain't one of them.  Seriously, and that's regardless of EDM or live bands or talking head corporates.

I strongly suggest you have your l'Acoustic dealer work up some coverage predictions based on stacking 3 vs flying the Kara, and have them do some predictions with the ARCS products (as Richard T suggests), based on the common audience geometries you work with.

I'm not a purist, I've put up some too-little and just-enough line array and know what that sounds like.  At the quality level you want to play at, it's not prudent to have too little to cover your audience.  I also understand that many forms of EDM emphasize the LF/ELF and in terms of thermal and SPL resources the top 7 octaves require far less, but that does not mean that those top 7 octaves should not cover the same audience area as the subwoofers, side to side and front to back.
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Minka Matikainen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 36
Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2014, 12:58:26 pm »


I understand that 3 Kara is not what is recommended for flying the system.
However, I already have point source boxes, and I want to get into a line array.

The events that I do for electronic music are somewhat unique in that I need wide horizontal, but not so much vertical. Many of the places are bars, or warehouse parties with low ceilings, but wide area for dancing.

My thoughts were to maybe stack 3-4 kara on top of 2-3 subs per side.
If I stick with the kara system, (Or any versatile line array), I can simply add to it as I get other work.
There is plenty of outdoor concerts, and events where line arrays are specd, and I am quite sure I can get some of the work.

On the other hand, if I just buy a few 12" or 15" boxes, (even L Acoustics), I highly doubt I would rent them as often as needed, because the rider work is going to ask for a line array, and I won't have one.

I was working as systemtech and did last summer multiple festivals' 2nd / 3rd stages with following rig:
18 pcs KARA (9/side) and 12 pcs SB28s (mono sum)

If you try to do anything more than a normal bar, 3 KARAs will not be suffifient. And it is not about the SPL they'll put out, but more importantly you will not be able to cover the whole audience.

What comes to your original post, unless you really intent to fly some of the subs, I would go with SB28s. Problem is however that there is no factory made bumber for those, so you need to figure out how to secure the M-BUMP (I would not recommend to go on with the MINI** ones, if you are thinking of expanding the system) on those to be used with KARA.

Even if 2 pcs of SB18 would perhaps put a slight amount of extra SPL over SB28, the low end extension on SB28s is better. And if you are really looking for 4 pcs of SB28s and 6 KARAs, you'll have the same ratio between KARA and subs as I did last summer, and I never ran out of bass... ...but still, I would recommend to invest more money on more KARAs. Three pcs is really lame and could, perhaps, be suitable as a sidefills for a rock festival stage.

e: missed my signing...

Br,
-Minka-
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 01:00:36 pm by Minka Matikainen »
Logged
95% of touring is work, and if you're lucky that 5% of the time is working with gear that are in good shape and according to rider...

Nate Howell

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2014, 04:10:15 pm »

Hmmm...so lets look at this a little differently.
Here is a typical gig that I have done in the past.....you can post your thoughts on what would be best.

Small warehouse party.
400-500 people.
Only 2 main speakers were used. 12" woofer type.
3 subs.

It could have used more bass, and better horizontal coverage.
Stage area was about 45-50 ft wide.
Crowd area was bout 60-70 ft deep.
Mains were placed about 30 ft apart, and angled in slightly. There was a definite lack of mid/highs in the middle of the stage, right where the subs were, and also on the outer edges of the dancefloor.

Assuming that I were to invest in a line array, but could NOT hang the array, and only option was to stack on subs, would I not have much better luck with the wider horizontal coverage?  Stacking 3-4 Kara on top of 2-3 subs would get the speakers at a decent height.

What is the alternative? 3 tops along the front stage? 4 tops? lobes? coverage issues? More dead spots?

For my smallest gigs, I dont plan to use the line array anyways. Like I mentioned, I already have regular type speakers boxes....both Coax type and conventional. 
But for wider rooms, warehouses, and bigger outdoor gigs, I would think the line array makes sense.  I am quite sure that I am not going to get rental work from the concerts that come through if all I have is 4 standard speaker boxes and a stack of subs. 

I am already the "little guy" that not many people have heard of. One way to change that is to have a system that is in high demand, no?


Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2014, 04:10:15 pm »


Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.084 seconds with 26 queries.