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Author Topic: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?  (Read 16278 times)

Simon Ryder

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2014, 08:16:30 pm »


As what it comes to d&b the V-system would be in same ball park, but at least here it costs more than KARA.


V is a bigger, more powerful box than Kara.

The D&B equivalent to Kara is the Y series - it is probably more in line cost wise as well.

As for stacking 3 tops a side on subs, yes you can do it. You need to be aware though that the frequency response of ANY proper line array cabinet when measured on its own is very, very HF heavy. It is only when deployed in long enough lines that the mid bass couples enough to keep up with the HF. Therefore you will need to EQ quite heavily to compensate for this. Armed with a little knowledge, you can make 3 boxes a side sound good but it will require some tweeking.

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Mac Kerr

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Low frequency buildup
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2014, 08:25:33 pm »

You need to be aware though that the frequency response of ANY proper line array cabinet when measured on its own is very, very HF heavy.

While this is generally true, it is not always true. As an example, Meyer Sound line array elements are fairly flat, and need low frequency conturing from a Galileo to compensate for low frequency buildup in arrays. You have to tell the Galileo how many of what boxes you are using to get the right curve.

Mac
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Minka Matikainen

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2014, 11:05:58 am »

V is a bigger, more powerful box than Kara.

The D&B equivalent to Kara is the Y series - it is probably more in line cost wise as well.

You're right. V is closer to KUDO and Y is a bit "smaller" than KARA, but more comparable. Sorry for the misinformation. I totally forgot the whole Y, because the ones I work with are J-, V- and Q- and of course E-series. Q is somewhere between KILO and KARA and therfore I've used to compare both, KUDO and KARA to V, which might not be fair to some of the 3 but has been the "best" possible comparison...

However even the Y is expensive compared to KARA...
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2014, 12:49:05 pm »


OPTION 2.  Danley. Get a stack of th118 or dbh218, and 2-4 tops.
They sound great, but again, I am not sure that this is going to get me cross rental, or jazz festival/concert work.


The cross rental concern is a issue currently (it will be less and less as time goes on).

2 TH118 are roughly equal to a single DBH218, and are much easier to move-but will cost more (for the same output).

Whatever Danley top you would choose would be great for most types of music except those wanting a particular "breakup" in the sound (ie  icepick in the forehead type sound).

I have heard it said often that the sound is not "aggressive" enough.  I will take that as a compliment.

Danley goes for the more accurate reproduction type of design, rather than trying to produce a particular type of sound for a specific music genre.
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Nate Howell

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2014, 12:21:48 pm »

I dont want aggressive sound...I want accurate and clean sound.   I think people that only mix rock shows for 2 hr blocks have a vastly different idea of what good sound is.  Some dance music events are very long....8 hours,  or more.  Keeping the levels correct,  having enough bass, but being careful not to rip peoples heads off with the highs...
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Simon Ryder

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2014, 10:05:41 am »

I dont want aggressive sound...I want accurate and clean sound.   I think people that only mix rock shows for 2 hr blocks have a vastly different idea of what good sound is.  Some dance music events are very long....8 hours,  or more.  Keeping the levels correct,  having enough bass, but being careful not to rip peoples heads off with the highs...

There is of course another alternative:

Rather than go for a small number of premier tier product, go for a full system of 2nd tier product.

Try DAS Event or RCF TT55 or FBT Muse. All of them are good systems and they will get louder and lower than Kara. The subs are decent and for the same investment you will get a much larger system capable of doing larger gigs. My personal preference out of these is for the DAS Event - we are looking at buying one for our B / C rig but make sure you have a listen, check out the rigging systems etc.

I would not be surprised if you could end up with 12 tops  and 6 or 8 double 18 subs with fly gear, ground stack plates and the cabling for the same investment level as 6 kara and 6 sb18.

This may make more commercial sense and present a greater ROI.
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Merlijn van Veen

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(8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2014, 05:13:07 am »

There is of course another alternative:

Rather than go for a small number of premier tier product, go for a full system of 2nd tier product.

Try DAS Event or RCF TT55 or FBT Muse. All of them are good systems and they will get louder and lower than Kara. The subs are decent and for the same investment you will get a much larger system capable of doing larger gigs. My personal preference out of these is for the DAS Event - we are looking at buying one for our B / C rig but make sure you have a listen, check out the rigging systems etc.

I would not be surprised if you could end up with 12 tops  and 6 or 8 double 18 subs with fly gear, ground stack plates and the cabling for the same investment level as 6 kara and 6 sb18.

This may make more commercial sense and present a greater ROI.

+1

BUT e.g. corporate clients care less about what brand you bring to the gig. At the same time they have A-list acts playing at the parties of these events and they don't wanna use your second tier system. This happens a lot in this corner of the world, forcing the rental company to upgrade eventually to a premier tier system. I think rider friendliness is something to keep in the back of your mind...

Minka Matikainen

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2014, 05:53:29 am »

Try DAS Event or RCF TT55 or FBT Muse. All of them are good systems and they will get louder and lower than Kara. The subs are decent and for the same investment you will get a much larger system capable of doing larger gigs. My personal preference out of these is for the DAS Event - we are looking at buying one for our B / C rig but make sure you have a listen, check out the rigging systems etc.

While DAS is pretty OK as a system, I would still like to challenge the comment on them going lower than KARA, at least without subs.

RCF and FBT I would forget and if that is the ballpark to play in, I would take a look to dbTechnologies T12 also...

None of these are KARA, but the T12 is rather OK, and it goes relatively low even without sub... ...but, you would still want to have subs with the T12 also...

A year ago I was system tech for Scooter for the gigs they did in Finland. We had as a system 16 pcs of dbTech's T12 (8 / side) and 8 pcs of S30 subs from dbTechnologies. All controlled thru DVA Network and I have nothing bad to say about the system from sound or power. It was powerful enough for the venues (average roughly 1200 pax) and had a good frequency response and went low enough also.

The cons with that system are with the fact that it is active, so you need to get the power, signal and control data cabling to every box, which is a bit laborous. It is also pretty demanding on the power quality, but if you have a good power distros, you'll be good... Also the rigging is not as nice as with KARA, or d&b Y/V/J, but you can live with it...

The main issue is that it is Italian, not a d&b or L'Acoustics and not that rider friendly...
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Simon Ryder

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2014, 05:19:06 pm »

While DAS is pretty OK as a system, I would still like to challenge the comment on them going lower than KARA, at least without subs.

RCF and FBT I would forget and if that is the ballpark to play in, I would take a look to dbTechnologies T12 also...

None of these are KARA, but the T12 is rather OK, and it goes relatively low even without sub... ...but, you would still want to have subs with the T12 also...

A year ago I was system tech for Scooter for the gigs they did in Finland. We had as a system 16 pcs of dbTech's T12 (8 / side) and 8 pcs of S30 subs from dbTechnologies. All controlled thru DVA Network and I have nothing bad to say about the system from sound or power. It was powerful enough for the venues (average roughly 1200 pax) and had a good frequency response and went low enough also.

The cons with that system are with the fact that it is active, so you need to get the power, signal and control data cabling to every box, which is a bit laborous. It is also pretty demanding on the power quality, but if you have a good power distros, you'll be good... Also the rigging is not as nice as with KARA, or d&b Y/V/J, but you can live with it...

The main issue is that it is Italian, not a d&b or L'Acoustics and not that rider friendly...

DAS do many systems, some budget, some not.

That Event dual 10" definitely drops lower per cabinet than Kara. 3 or 4 per side will have a slightly louder (not necessarily cleaner) low mid / upper bass than Kara. Volume wise I suspect that there is also not much in it. The rigging system is pretty decent and the prediction software is Ease Focus.

The DB technologies gets good reviews.

The only way to be really sure is to have a look / listen.

As for the brand / rider thing.... Yes it is important, but not as important as some people would have you believe.

Unless an artist is endorsed / carrying, they will often accept all sorts of brands / kit if it means them getting a fat pay check. Sometimes they just take the money and run...

The key is having a tight operation, knowing your shit and being able to instill the artist's people with confidence in yourself, your team and your equipment.
Once that is done, you can put almost anything in front of them, so long as it sounds good and meets the job spec. Yes, one of the magic 3/4 brands is an easy sell but we all know that it really comes down to the crew rather than the kit. Trust and reliability are the key factors.

As for everyone wanting the A rig, well of course they do... The question is "Do they have the money to pay for it?" If not, they get the B/C rig. You would be surprised what caliber of artist all the big rental houses that have B/C rigs have done with their lesser systems.

Tim McCulloch is a good example here:

I believe they have a cheaper line array in stock. DB Tech or RCF IIRCC? What level of gigs does this go out on? Do you have problems with people accepting it?

I still think for the original posters market, he is probably better with a bigger system that sounds really good rather than a smaller, more premium system that struggles to keep up with many of the gigs.

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Minka Matikainen

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2014, 04:32:15 am »

DAS do many systems, some budget, some not.

That Event dual 10" definitely drops lower per cabinet than Kara. 3 or 4 per side will have a slightly louder (not necessarily cleaner) low mid / upper bass than Kara. Volume wise I suspect that there is also not much in it. The rigging system is pretty decent and the prediction software is Ease Focus.

DAS does make many systems, yes... ...and yes, SoundVision is a product to be purchased, but is a lot more capable to predict complex situations than Ease Focus.

Straight from marketing BS:
KARA freq response: 55Hz - 20 kHz
Event 210A freq. response: 70Hz - 20kHz

So please, explain how you see Event going lower?
Of course the real low limit comes to the lenght of the array, but based on specs, I would not buy that Event would go lower...

I do agree with you that perhaps this time the highend product is not necessarily the best tool for the job. Based on my experience with lower budget systems, I would recommend to get a set of dbTechnologies T12s with S30s or S20s (which is a bit tighter than S30 in my opinion) for test and listen how they would fit to the need.

I wish you all a very merry Xmas!
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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2014, 04:32:15 am »


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