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Author Topic: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?  (Read 16260 times)

Marjan Milosevic

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2014, 08:30:36 pm »

My 2 cents.
First of all, have you heard the Kara system in a 4 boxes per side deployment?
Yes it is a respectable brand, yes it can sound very good, but.. it is not a very loud box. Forget the spec and marketing figures stated there. They are quite optimistic.
Second, how do you plan on bidding for more work and get in the concert world gigs with 3 boxes per side?
Regardless of the fact that you have a rider acceptable rig you wont get the work because of the lack of rig.
Third, Kara works with the LA84 amps and has a dsp setting made for a minimum of 4 boxes. So you will be having difficult time getting the system sounding right because the settings are not adjustable.

So you either bite the bullet and get enough boxes from the start, or look for other alternative.

Nate Howell

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2014, 12:39:58 am »

My 2 cents.
First of all, have you heard the Kara system in a 4 boxes per side deployment?
Yes it is a respectable brand, yes it can sound very good, but.. it is not a very loud box. Forget the spec and marketing figures stated there. They are quite optimistic.
Second, how do you plan on bidding for more work and get in the concert world gigs with 3 boxes per side?
Regardless of the fact that you have a rider acceptable rig you wont get the work because of the lack of rig.
Third, Kara works with the LA84 amps and has a dsp setting made for a minimum of 4 boxes. So you will be having difficult time getting the system sounding right because the settings are not adjustable.

So you either bite the bullet and get enough boxes from the start, or look for other alternative.

No , not yet. I was supposed to demo them last week but had to re-schedule.
Bigger concert work would require more boxes...6 or more per side. (I would just buy more boxes)

As for the LA8, wouldn't you just run all 6 Kara (3 per side) on one LA8, and the 4 SB28, or 8 SB18 subs off another LA8?

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David Morison

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2014, 05:14:19 am »


I am already the "little guy" that not many people have heard of. One way to change that is to have a system that is in high demand, no?

Not if you don't have enough of it to meet other peoples expectations of what a rig like that should be able to do, rather than just your own, no.

Nothing will lose you work faster than disappointing higher-end clients.

If you're limited by budget/logistics/stacking vs flying type issues, and want to stay L'Acoustics, I'd add a vote for ARCS as a more sensible place to start.

HTH,
David.
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Marjan Milosevic

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2014, 08:48:55 am »

If the budget is not enough i would say go for a used D-Vdosc system and get enough boxes right from the start.

Tim McCulloch

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2014, 03:13:36 am »

Not if you don't have enough of it to meet other peoples expectations of what a rig like that should be able to do, rather than just your own, no.

Nothing will lose you work faster than disappointing higher-end clients.

If you're limited by budget/logistics/stacking vs flying type issues, and want to stay L'Acoustics, I'd add a vote for ARCS as a more sensible place to start.

HTH,
David.

Nate, this is where I was headed - too little gear will either result in no outside work or "one-time-only" clients that were disappointed with the results of too little of a good thing...

I think it admirable that you want to have a premium brand for your own shows and to offer on hire, but one of the key things to remember is that a sound system is a tool used to make money (and in a secondary sense, to make "art").  It's not a big personal stereo system, particularly if we're making brand decisions based on the needs of or usefulness to others.

You need Enough Rig for the Gig« to not have disappointed hire clients, let alone disappoint your audiences when producing your own events.

We do a couple of EDM gigs where we use 4 line array tops - JBL VerTec 4889 - and 6 SRX728 or VT4880 subs, per side.  The box count for the tops is not arbitrary, it's what will cover the audience area with reasonable consistency WHEN FLOWN.  If it were stacked it would not cover significantly better that the ground-stacked pSeudo-4 rig it replaced and would absolutely kill the audience up front.

Vertical arrays are something that need to be "born fully formed".  From a commercial standpoint you really can't grow your market while buying on the "box a month plan."  You need enough boxes to do the gigs RIGHT, the first time, or you won't be doing another show for that client.  How many do you need?  That's why I suggested you figure out how deep, wide, and tall (floor slope, balcony, etc) the audience areas you now cover or expect to cover, and have your dealer model the coverage in l'Acoustic's software (SoundVision, IIRC)  with different quantities of tops, trim heights, etc.  Once you know how much PA this is going to take you can look at your finances and see if some realignment is in order...

That said, if you buy a Kara rig you WILL be taking the training.  That's a good thing as vertical arrays are not necessarily intuitive and IMHO are easier to screw up.  l'Acoustic has a vested interest in you knowing their products and using them correctly - their reputation depends on users properly deploying their systems.

Count on needing a way to suspend a vertical array (or lift a conventional speaker system, everything sounds better up in the air) to a meaningful trim height.  Count on needed more power amps/processing than you originally assume (to "circuit" the PA in a manner that gives you more control).   Count on needing an electrical power distribution system, and racks/cabling/misc to run it all.

It's a big deal, Nate.  There's not really a good way to do this on the cheap without risking client satisfaction, safety or both.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Minka Matikainen

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2014, 06:11:19 am »

Small warehouse party.
400-500 people.
Only 2 main speakers were used. 12" woofer type.
3 subs.

For this size of an event, you'll be struggling with just 3 KARAs / side. You might be good with 4, depending on the room, but you would be OK with 5/side... ...and for that you'll need another LA8 and it just makes sense to go for 6/side, which will do the job for you, but is of course, if not double, at least close to it, amount of money...

It could have used more bass, and better horizontal coverage.
Stage area was about 45-50 ft wide.
Crowd area was bout 60-70 ft deep.
Mains were placed about 30 ft apart, and angled in slightly. There was a definite lack of mid/highs in the middle of the stage, right where the subs were, and also on the outer edges of the dancefloor.

Well... Line array as it's own will not necessarily solve this problem. I used to use last summer 2 stacks of KIVAs as 2 pcs per stack as frontfills...

...Last weekend I was doing a smaller inside corporate event (450pax) and the program consisted of speech and band playing at the end of the night. For speeches I had delay speakers (108P) and the main system was SB28 in vertical direction and on top of that 1 KILO and 4 KIVAs, with KIBU secured to SB28. KILO was there to fill a bit between SB28 and KIVAs but especially to get the KIVAs a bit higher...

Stage was 8m (26ft?) wide and I had the main system spread just outside the stage, so the distance between centerlines was approx 8,5m (28ft?). KIVA has a horizontal coverage of 100 degrees while KARA has 110 degrees... ..and there was NO way I could have covered the front of the stage with just KIVAs, but I needed to add 2 pcs of 108Ps, one per side, tilted a bit inwards to do the trick.

Even with KARA I would not have been able to do it... ...so using line array would not solve the problem in you case...

...ok, to be fair, the audience had access to approx 40cm (a bit more than 1ft?) from the stage...

Assuming that I were to invest in a line array, but could NOT hang the array, and only option was to stack on subs, would I not have much better luck with the wider horizontal coverage?  Stacking 3-4 Kara on top of 2-3 subs would get the speakers at a decent height.

3 pcs of SB18 makes a decent height for KARA to be stacked on top of it, and you'll still get a good angle, and if you are not going to fly them, despide my own comment earlier, I would go with SB18 because of factory made bumber.

I have been successful in clubs for roughly 700 - 900 pax with a setup where I had 4 pcs of SB18 as subs / side and 6 KARAs on top of those as ground stack / side + i.e. 2 HiQs as front fills near the KARA stacks aimed a bit inwards.

What is the alternative? 3 tops along the front stage? 4 tops? lobes? coverage issues? More dead spots?

A good alternative, as suggested, for tops would be ARCS. Problem with ARCS is that you need to have those on top of an extension rod attached to subs, because you can't get enough negative angle from top of 3 SB18s, or you end up too low with 2 SB18s... ...I've used ARCS so that I've had it on top of extension rod, which has been attached to SB18, which has been secured to the bottom SB18. So the system was 2 SB18s and 1 ARCS WIDE / side. Obviously this is not for bigger audiences / loud levels, but works for i.e. 200-300pax quite okay...
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Nate Howell

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 09:16:27 pm »

Well, the more I think about this whole thing, the more I am confused as what to do.

As mentioned, I already have some top boxes,(Yorkville and Bassmaxx).
The problem is, they sound completely different, so I cant really use them together.
The Yorkville are 15" woofer boxes. They are old. I plan to keep them and still use them as dj monitors, but not use them as mains.
The Bassmaxx/Bassboss are 12" woofer / Co-ax boxes.
My subs are Bassmaxx/bassboss as well.

So, my thought was to invest in a system and brand that is high end, and rider friendly.
I also wanted to pick a system that I could build upon, by adding more equipment of the same type as I get more work, etc.

As of right now, 95% of my work is House / techno events.
This is because I am a dj, and have been in this scene for quite some time.

However, I would like to branch out and do other work.
For my current gigs, just about any setup would work.  Quite frankly, I could buy 8 QSC subs and a few tops from GC and call it a day. Most of the people at the events would not know any better, but I would, and I would hate myself for it.
In fact, I cant stand all the other sound systems around here because they start with cheap equipment, and then they are deployed improperly, or without any care, tuning, or room treatment whatsoever.

So, my plan is to change that.  I know that you cant change room acoustics very well in a 2-4 hour period of setup time, but you can control how YOUR rig sounds.

I have already made a big impression with the Bassboss gear that I've been using.
It is a small system though, and I usually get the side room gigs, or small 1-room events.

So, where to go from here?

OPTION 1.  I can buy a stack of Bassboss subs, and another pair of speakers.
This gets me a little more work, but nothing on the "pro" level. 
The jazz festivals that come through don't want bassboss. They want L acoustics, d&B.

For the larger concerts that come through, some of them are a little more open to what is available.  I have seen L Acoustics, JBL, EAW, etc.  But to my knowledge, there is only one place anywhere near me that uses L Acoustics, and most of their stuff is old. (dvdosc)

OPTION 2.  Danley. Get a stack of th118 or dbh218, and 2-4 tops.
They sound great, but again, I am not sure that this is going to get me cross rental, or jazz festival/concert work.

OPTION 3. L Acoustics. PROS- I love LA. I love the way they sound, and always have. Something about them just gives me chills. Every time I have heard them, the tonal quality has been amazing. Outdoor events, indoor events, concerts, casinos, etc.

Kara? Bite the bullet and empty my pockets for this rider friendly system, while I smirk happily knowing I own my dream system, and yet pulling my hair out at the same time hoping I can rent it enough to pay for it.
Arcs? Great sound, can be used sort of like a line array. Not as popular as kara?
CONS - Cost.


Option 4. D&B. I really don't feel like this is worth exploring. From what I know, they are mostly 2nd or 3rd on riders, and cost more than LA.

OPTION 5. Alcons.
PROS - Every bit of research I have done points to these as being a spectacular product. The people in charge in the US are amazing to deal with on a personal level.
They offer a few small arrays that might work very well for my need  (LR7, LR14, LR16)
I was leaning towards LR16m and I believe I could use it as a vertical type speaker because the waveguide is rotatable. Anyone have experience with this?   CONS- No one has heard of them, and chance for cross - rental is basically non existent.

OPTION 6. Funktion One. 
PROS - Recognized everywhere in electronic music land. I am sure I could get a decent amount of work with a rig like this.
CONS - I think this would embed me into dance music only. I dont see corporate gigs or jazz using these either.

OPTION 7. Void Acoustics.
Pros - Amazing sound. Some of the best dance music systems I have heard...however, the person that tuned the systems (that I listened to) is a wizard. I am quite sure he could make anything sound great. 
Again, I am sure this would embed me into the dance music gigs even more, but not so much any other type of gig. 

Option 7. Martin Audio. W8** line array
PROS - decent price. Could get more top boxes for the same price as Kara
CONS - Amps, processing, and rigging appear just as expensive, or more than LA.
Not as rider friendly in the US.

Thoughts? I could really use some guidance.
Thanks for all the replies so far - I appreciate it.

Nate
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Richard Turner

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2014, 10:21:34 pm »

Theres more to Funktion one than the dance stack system.

The thing is though if you blow your budget on 1/2 of an l'accoustics KARA rig its still not going to win you jobs at the Jazz fest and talking heads gigs,

you still need cases,

something to lift it safely off the ground with,

a truck big enough to move it all around with,

enough smoke and light to make a show for EDM gigs

ownership or reliable rental access to mixer that is rider friendly, doubtful an X32 will make the cut for multi input gigs


Maybe the QSC would be less of a buy in and something that week in week out would see more use? Anything thats earning its warehouse space (or so much in demand it does not need any)is worth owning.

 
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Looking at retiring. Local PA market has shrank to 2 guys with guitars and bose l1 compacts or expecting full line array and 16 movers on stage for $300... no middle left going back to event DJ stuff, half the work for twice the pay.

chuck clark

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2014, 12:44:13 am »

As the Kara is a dual 8" box, with only 3 per side your output and pattern control will most likely be lacking in the low mid/ hi-bass region.  With only 3 per side you would be better off w/ a dual 10" box like Turboflex. You will want to eventually have 4 Turboflex or 6 Kara per side for a surprisingly capable compact PA.  There are other names out there making excellent boxes of roughly equivalent size and capability but the total cone area and physical height of ANY line array will tend to act in a similar manner in the low mid region.  Since the size of the source must equal at least 1/4 wavelength of the tone being produced to have any significant control over the directionality of the wave propagation we can see that the nameplate on the box does not change the laws of physics.  Best of luck to you!
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Minka Matikainen

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2014, 06:32:34 am »

I would choose KARA myself, but I would do anythng to double the budget... 3/side is not a lot, especially if you're doing EDM. For a small (less than 300 pax) jazz club it would perhaps do the trick...
As what it comes to d&b the V-system would be in same ball park, but at least here it costs more than KARA.

I also work quite a lot with d&b products, and my honest opinion is that you should not deploy any linearray with just 3 boxes / side. With that amount you don't have the needed control over the system's acoustic characteristics. I always, no matter which systen, try to aim for at least 5 boxes/side.

But if you can get 6pcs of KARA and at least 4pcs of SB18 / side you would have a decent rig to different situations.

As you pointed out KARA is rider friendly and easily scalable (it can be used even as downfill for K1/K2). And if you decide to do it properly and get the M-Bump and M-bar you're good to fly it also, if needed... ...however you would not need the M-bar for groundstacking, but I still recommend to have it...

If I was you, I would take a look with bank on financing, if you could get more, and at the same time discuss with the company having dVDosc whether they would be willing to co-operate with you and if in the best case you could both get some KARA and subhire those to each other, when you need bigger system...

Just my 2 European cents...
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95% of touring is work, and if you're lucky that 5% of the time is working with gear that are in good shape and according to rider...

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Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
┬ź Reply #19 on: December 06, 2014, 06:32:34 am ┬╗


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