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Author Topic: Small.... Cheap.....Decent?  (Read 3937 times)

Scott Slaughter

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Small.... Cheap.....Decent?
« on: February 08, 2015, 09:53:42 pm »

     OK.... let me bore you with the set up, so if anybody hangs around long enough to read it - they'll have a good frame of reference....
     I am a musician first, soundman a distant second.  Stuck with it sometimes when there is no budget for a real pro.   I love great gear.  I have spent what little I have on really good gear as a keyboard player, which gets pricey AND as an ac. guitarist, which adds up too.   Also - my "van" is a Subaru Outback.   One of my band mates has always transported the subwoofer end of my little rig which consists of 2 Yamaha DSR 112s and one (although I own two - we just can't fit another into his Outback with his gear) older Klipsch 15" passive sub, powered by one side of a Crest CA-9.  The rig sounds real nice, though the sub can't keep up when things get pushed.
    Now.... his Outback died and was forced to acquire an even smaller car and cannot fit the sub.
SO....   I am trying with almost zero budget to see what I can come up with for a solution.  I'm thinking of selling the two subs and the Crest amp for peanuts and maybe coming up with money to buy one Yamaha DSX12. (I'm pretty sure the DSX15 is too big)   I'm a little afraid that this will be even less bottom.  Am I wrong?   With this rig, I'm typically working small clubs of 80 people or less or small ballrooms with maybe 100 - 120.  If one of my acts plays a bigger gig (and they do) I will insist on hiring a pro.
    The sub in this smaller scenario will only be handling some backing tracks, or maybe a bit of live kick drum and a bleed of bass and keys.   No slamming house or hip hop.
    I had a potentially dumb idea of buying one or two Peavey PR Subs, because they are ridiculously cheap and maybe replacing the drivers with a couple of old JBL 2226h  speakers that have been laying around unused for years in my garage, powering them with the Crest.   Quickly - should I discard this idea immediately?  Could it work?
   BTW - the mixer is an old Soundcraft Rac-Pac and the x-over is a BBE Max3.
I think I've layed it all out.  Looking forward to opinions and ideas from you real engineers.
   
   
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Small.... Cheap.....Decent?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2015, 10:54:47 pm »

How big is the bass rig in this band? For the venue sizes you describe I would think the bass rig can likely provide all the lowend you need, so you could skip the PA sub altogether.
I say this because to do those DSRs justice you need two very capable 18" subs with lots of power behind them but you simply don't have the "truck" space for that so don't even bother. And BTW.. 2226 drivers in working condition command upwards of $300 each on the used market.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 11:04:14 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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Scott Slaughter

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Re: Small.... Cheap.....Decent?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2015, 04:05:06 pm »

How big is the bass rig in this band? For the venue sizes you describe I would think the bass rig can likely provide all the lowend you need, so you could skip the PA sub altogether.
I say this because to do those DSRs justice you need two very capable 18" subs with lots of power behind them but you simply don't have the "truck" space for that so don't even bother. And BTW.. 2226 drivers in working condition command upwards of $300 each on the used market.

The bass rig is just a 2x10 eden.  I know that I cannot own a subwoofer that will both fit in a Corolla AND keep up with the DSRs.   I bought the DSRs because they sound great at even lower volumes.   I'm just looking to round out the bottom with a little bass guitar, but mostly the kick drum.
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Small.... Cheap.....Decent?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2015, 05:03:24 pm »

Scott... if you didn't have to carry the CA9 around would you then have room for a 15" sub? A powered sub would be the way to go IMO even if you can only fit a single 12 or 15, but the smaller the driver the higher level of performance(meaning more expensive) it must be to produce usable extension and impact. I'd suggest you get out an demo what is available in powered subs to see if there is anything that fits your requirements. I do think you will have to spend some good money to get respectable performance in a super compact package, any yes a sub on the ground will produce more lowend than speakers on sticks.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 05:09:17 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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duane massey

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Re: Small.... Cheap.....Decent?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2015, 05:51:33 pm »

First, actually measure how much space you really have, instead of guessing. I would suspect that you can find room for a decent powered sub. I also suspect that you may not get much more out of a new sub than you have with the old one, but I haven't heard the newer powered subs in the smaller packages.
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Duane Massey
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Lee Douglas

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Re: Small.... Cheap.....Decent?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2015, 06:45:14 pm »

What's the old adage?  Small/cheap/loud.  Pick any two.  This, however, would open up some options for you:

Not sure where you're at or what year your Outback is, but $14.95 plus tax and $8.00 (optional) insurance you could just rent a U-Haul trailer when you need the subs or for every gig and avoid beating the crap out of your cars interior.  Lately I've been leaving the truck at work and renting a 6x12 trailer (approx. $40 a day) behind a Tahoe.  I can fit four subs, four tops three  18 ru racks, a large format board, a distro, a 6x10 bass rig, a guitar rig,some lighting and a bunch of cable cases into it easily.  It comes right of the top along with gas and insurance.  Easier on my vehicle and still better gas mileage and way more comfortable than the truck.  I should actually be considering purchasing my own trailer.  It would pay for itself in about four to five years.
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: Small.... Cheap.....Decent?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2015, 07:42:54 pm »

     OK.... let me bore you with the set up, so if anybody hangs around long enough to read it - they'll have a good frame of reference....
     I am a musician first, soundman a distant second.  Stuck with it sometimes when there is no budget for a real pro.   I love great gear.  I have spent what little I have on really good gear as a keyboard player, which gets pricey AND as an ac. guitarist, which adds up too.   Also - my "van" is a Subaru Outback.   One of my band mates has always transported the subwoofer end of my little rig which consists of 2 Yamaha DSR 112s and one (although I own two - we just can't fit another into his Outback with his gear) older Klipsch 15" passive sub, powered by one side of a Crest CA-9.  The rig sounds real nice, though the sub can't keep up when things get pushed.
    Now.... his Outback died and was forced to acquire an even smaller car and cannot fit the sub.
SO....   I am trying with almost zero budget to see what I can come up with for a solution.  I'm thinking of selling the two subs and the Crest amp for peanuts and maybe coming up with money to buy one Yamaha DSX12. (I'm pretty sure the DSX15 is too big)   I'm a little afraid that this will be even less bottom.  Am I wrong?   With this rig, I'm typically working small clubs of 80 people or less or small ballrooms with maybe 100 - 120.  If one of my acts plays a bigger gig (and they do) I will insist on hiring a pro.
    The sub in this smaller scenario will only be handling some backing tracks, or maybe a bit of live kick drum and a bleed of bass and keys.   No slamming house or hip hop.
    I had a potentially dumb idea of buying one or two Peavey PR Subs, because they are ridiculously cheap and maybe replacing the drivers with a couple of old JBL 2226h  speakers that have been laying around unused for years in my garage, powering them with the Crest.   Quickly - should I discard this idea immediately?  Could it work?
   BTW - the mixer is an old Soundcraft Rac-Pac and the x-over is a BBE Max3.
I think I've layed it all out.  Looking forward to opinions and ideas from you real engineers.
   
   

No one ever actually answered your question but a single DXS-12 will easily do a room that holds 80 pp at a reasonable volume  but it will never keep up with a set of DSR112s if you push them. Dial your tops back and you'll be find.  I use a single DXS-12 all the time for crowds up to 125 people.

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Scott Slaughter

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Re: Small.... Cheap.....Decent?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2015, 07:58:12 pm »

No one ever actually answered your question but a single DXS-12 will easily do a room that holds 80 pp at a reasonable volume  but it will never keep up with a set of DSR112s if you push them. Dial your tops back and you'll be find.  I use a single DXS-12 all the time for crowds up to 125 people.

Scott,
    Thank you!    I didn't want to seem like I didn't appreciate everyone's input, so I held back saying "Thanks guys, now will someone actually answer the question?"    So I think maybe I'll scrape up the dough for the DSX12 and maybe get a second one someday if I ever find myself with a few more cubic feet to work with.
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Ian Nelson

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Re: Small.... Cheap.....Decent?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2015, 10:00:54 pm »

Are you capable of doing woodworking? Your needs sound like one of the situations where DIY cabinets can shine. There are several proven designs that will give great output with limited pack space and very economically. Martinsson's THAM 15 comes to mind.
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: Small.... Cheap.....Decent?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2015, 06:06:59 am »

Scott,
    Thank you!    I didn't want to seem like I didn't appreciate everyone's input, so I held back saying "Thanks guys, now will someone actually answer the question?"    So I think maybe I'll scrape up the dough for the DSX12 and maybe get a second one someday if I ever find myself with a few more cubic feet to work with.

It's not going to be the best sounding sub you ever heard but it will do the job. That's the compromise of needing a small box.

 The ZXA1 sub sounds better but you'd need more than two of them to get the volume that a single DXS puts out. I own both and prefer the EV when I don't need a lot of volume.

I tried running just two ZXA1s only and the limits would often kick in when I tried to push them. So I bought the DXS. I've never had the limit light come on with the DXS. But I have it paired with tops that can't out run it also.  I know my volume limits with that system.  If I need volume I bring out a bigger rig.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 06:11:05 am by Scott Olewiler »
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Re: Small.... Cheap.....Decent?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2015, 06:06:59 am »


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