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[Robert Lofgren]

Robert, do you have more details for me about this?

I'm using the recommended Midas cable which is an unshielded one. My Midas tech does not recommend to use shielded cables because he knows some issues with them.

Check out this video for some more info

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nWF_0agjk&autoplay=1

[Roland Schilcher]

Check out this video for some more info

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nWF_0agjk&autoplay=1

Robert, this is great! I'll try this out! Thank you.

[David Jameson]

I use the same Belden 1305A cable as you. The cable is about 305-310 feet. Do you think this could be a problem? Why should they sell a cable which is too long for AES50?

I've tried a second CAT5e for redundancy, maybe it worked, but I have not always the possibility.

My biggest problem is: I can't reproduce the error... It's random...

Cat5 has a 100m limit...approximately 330 feet.  That's total length or all cables in the run.

I wouldn't use a  power conditioner with any digital equipment. (unless specifically designed for it)

I sympathize...I couldn't reproduce my issue either.  May work fine one night...the next night may work for 5 hours then have the issue.  No rhyme, no reason.  Hope you get it sorted out.

Good luck.

[Doug Johnson]

It would seem to me that there are problems caused by ESD and EMI which effect systems which use unshielded Cat5e cable and that there are also issues caused by interconnecting units using shielded cat5e cable.  Does anyone have an opinion on/experience with using shielded cable that has the shield lifted on one end?   

[Eric Vogel]

Hello,

i've got some very mysterious problems here with my Midas console.
I bought my Pro 1 in January this year with two DL153 and a KT DN9620 for using the 153's with just one ethernet cable. I did some shows with this setup but on 4-5 shows I had some audio dropouts...

Maybe someone of you can help me? 

- Setup A - Midas Pro 1 / AES50 Port 1 direct into 1x DL153 AES50 Port 1 over ethernet
With this setup I had at one show a lot of dropouts, both devices where running from the soundcheck until the show about 5 hours without switch off, at the show everything was fine for 2 hours - no problems, then the dropouts startet. It was a very loud "crack" on the main PA and all the monitor wedges and audio was not going through for a few seconds... after this seconds audio was playing again... 5mins later, same problem, it wasn't stopping, so I went up on the stage to check the stage box, maybe I've got some power problems. But no, I was looking at the stagebox when a dropout startet again but the stagebox was running normally. The LED indicators were normal, everything was fine. Afters this I checked on the console the connection to the DL153 and I saw, when a dropout was happening the devices lost only AES50 sync. Uptime was still counting, no reset, only sync was missing... ethernet cable was ok too...

On another show, same thing was happening, but without a "crack" but it lost the sync for about 14 seconds...

- Setup B - Midas Pro 1 / AES50 Port 1&2 into KT DN9620 over ethernet cable into  2x DL153 AES50 Port 1
With this setup I've got a very mysterious problem too, before the show startet I was looking at my DN9620 extender, no audio was running, so I don't know if there would be a crack or something else... But, I saw that the extender lost the sync with the Pro 1 and with the other extender, after 6 seconds the sync came back (looked at the LED indicators which switched from OK to error), this happened every 5-8 minutes, I don't know why too, power was OK, everything was running... any ideas?

So, after this scenarios I brought my whole setup to my Midas distribution company. The technical guy checked everything out, did some test recording over 3 days and got no dropouts. He said, maybe, the problem are the Furman power conditioner that I'm using, that the power drops and the stagebox has not enough power to stay in sync with the console. But I have no idea...

I also thought that it can be the ethernet cable, I'm using the original Belden one and checked everything twice, I've checked the RJ45 connectors and measured the cable with a pro network cable tester which measures NEXT, Damping, etc. - but everything was fine too.

So, maybe someone can help me, I'm a bit scared to use my setup for the next shows because I never know when audio drops will happen again...

Thanks a lot.

Regards from Austria,
Roland

EDIT: Oh, I've checked the log files too and found out that on these days I've got a lot, I mean a lot, of this errors:

"Error : [io_manager_t:crd_update] AES50 port X down“
"Warning : [io_manager_t::crd_update] AES50 Port X Pending Interrupts  : Condition Cleared“

It wasn't everytime a dropout when this appears in the log, but it appeared sometimes every 10 seconds..

Here's a few things to think about...

EIA/TIA publishes standards for copper and fiber networking media and hardware.

Here's a link for the 568C.2 copper twisted pair standard:

https://global.ihs.com/doc_detail.cfm?&rid=TIA&input_doc_number=TIA-568&item_s_key=00339843&item_key_date=890831&input_doc_number=TIA-568&input_doc_title=

If you don't have the cake to dowmload it, check out this link:

http://www.vdvworks.com/UncleTed/PDF/uncleted.pdf

Quick summary of what your cabling should be:

328' (100m) is the max 'channel' length.  Within the 'channel', TIA defines a horizontal 'permanent link' that is limited to a max length of 295' (90m) using CAT5e or CAT6 or CAT6A solid 4 pair UTP.  On either side of the 'permanent link' one can have no more than the sum of 33' (10m) of CAT5e or CAT6 or CAT6A stranded or solid 4 pair UTP.  The sum of the 'patch cable' and the 'permanent link' cannot exceed 328'.

300'+ of Belden 1305A (stranded 5e patch cable) is not the way to go here.  AES50 uses IEEE 802.3 Layer 1 hardware for the 2 audio data pairs and the 2 sync signal pairs and the phy is based off of 100 BASE TX.  This interface must adhere to the length and media types in TIA 568C.2.  It is 'lucky' that the link works at all with that much stranded patch cable in line.

I have posted on some other threads about keeping category snakes standardized, making your 4 pair UTP snakes CAT6 solid or CAT6A solid max 300', and some short CAT6 or CAT6A solid or stranded under 12'.  There is very good rugged CAT6 and CAT6A out there; you need to source the proper RJ45's for the #23 solid conductors, normal CAT5e RJ45's won't fit this wire.  CAT6 or 6A even if plugged into Ethercon 5e receptacles will allow added performance headroom over a 5e cable, especially outdoors on hot days which affects HF/Hi bitrate attenuation consequently affecting link SNR.  The cable constructions I use exclusively for 'portable permanent links' (FOH snakes) is 300' Link LKS CAT6 solid UTP #23 and Belden 7927A 'enhanced' CAT6 solid bonded pair UTP with an industrial outdoor jacket (stiff stuff but manageable when loomed with 12/3 SO).  Source RJ45's from this site:

http://rj45s.com/


As to the video posted above showing ESD events perturbing the AES50 link between stage box and X32, I don't know if they have a fix for this, but I would try placing some clamp on ferrite core common mode chokes on either end of the cables near the RJ45 boots.  I don't think the presence of a screen or lack therof has any significant impact on the behavior of the link under these ESD events.  What could be happening may be attributed to how the 4 pairs are common mode terminated (either resistive and or capacitively bonded to chassis) behind the receptacle...
The twisted pairs are less inductive than the device cord ground conductor and the HF spark noise current is traveling from equipment case thru common mode termination on AES50 link and the capacitive imbalances in the cable are converting the common mode noise into an undesirable differential signal... just a thought.  Try the chokes to see if they make a difference.

[David Jameson]

300'+ of Belden 1305A (stranded 5e patch cable) is not the way to go here.

I'll agree the length is excessive, but this is the cable recommended to me by Midas' tech folks.  I'm 99% sure he told me this is what they sell on their reels when purchasing their bundles for the Pro 2 and up.  It may not be the way to go but I would trust the manufacturer's recommendations.

Good luck.

[Roland Schilcher]

Hey folks,

I've tried the ESD thing and YES that's the problem! I'll do a video and post it here after a few tests...

-Roland

[Roland Schilcher]

Here is the video of my ESD test with this setup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCvQ3ECNgM

I think it's just an issue with the DL153. I'll try to get a DL251 to do the same test with a Pro2.

Can someone test this too with his Midas Pro console? Thanks.

[Kyle Chirnside]

Hello Gentlemen,

I would suggest calling or emailing MIDAS Care team at 702-800-8290 or email [email protected].
Most of the statements in this thread are correct. Belden / Unshielded connection @100m. The only customer experience of static issues being transmitted through cabling was for a install that had fresh shag carpet laid over the CAT5e cables. One call out of 100's.

Please do contact us, we are here to assist.

Best,
Kyle Chirnside
Specialist, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
MIDAS

[Roger Sterchi, darkBox.ch]

Here is the video of my ESD test with this setup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCvQ3ECNgM

I think it's just an issue with the DL153. I'll try to get a DL251 to do the same test with a Pro2.

Can someone test this too with his Midas Pro console? Thanks.

In the last few days I did a few ESD shock tests, with my PRO1, DL151, DL153, PRO2, DL251, DN9650 (Dante64) interconnected with different CAT5(e) cabling.

As a result of my tests, I would say that CAT5 S-FTP, with Ethercon connectors would do the job, and get rid of ESD problems. Just checked for proper electrical connection, between the Ethercon housings on both side of the cable.

1. The CAT5 unshielded Belden Brilliance 1305A wither Ethercon, which I got with my PRO2 TP, are vulnerable to ESD shocks with any Midas and KT equipment listed above.
http://www.belden.com/techdatas/english/1305A.pdf

2. An random selected standard CAT5 unshielded computer network cable, where vulnerable to ESD shocks with any Midas and KT equipment listed above.

3. A CAT5e S-FTP patch cable w/o Ethercon connectors, where vulnerable to ESD shocks with any Midas and KT equipment listed above.
http://www.aquatuning.ch/kabel/netzwerkkabel/6209/patchkabel-s-ftp-cat.5e-schwarz-3m

4. The same CAT5e S-FTP patch cable w. proper mounted aftermarket Ethercon Neutrik NE8MC, where immune to ESD shocks with any Midas and KT equipment listed above.
http://www.aquatuning.ch/kabel/netzwerkkabel/6209/patchkabel-s-ftp-cat.5e-schwarz-3m
http://www.neutrik.com/en/ethercon/ethercon-cable-connector-carrier/ne8mc

5. Cordial CAT 5 CSE15NN5, where immune to ESD shocks with any Midas and KT equipment listed above.

6. Pro snake 88385-50, where immune to ESD shocks with any Midas and KT equipment listed above.

darkBox.ch, Roger Sterchi

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