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Author Topic: Floor box use by touring shows  (Read 10463 times)

Alex Donkle

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Re: Floor box use by touring shows
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2014, 11:57:33 PM »

Not sure if it's early enough in the design phase for this, but as someone dealing with shows all the way up to touring Broadway shows in a local PAC I highly suggest 10" pipe each upstage side of the proscenium all the way back to your FOH area.

Yes, we've done at least one act that a large-enough connector bundle to fill that 10".

Was the show using a 10" pipe also using analog snakes from FOH to stage? 8" pipe has been used in many large venues, but as mentioned by others most bands are using digital snakes (either coax, cat5, or fiber), so is a large pipe still actually needed? No modern digital snake uses large multi-pin connectors like the W4, which is what has traditionally driven the large conduit size needed.
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Matt Marcus

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Re: Floor box use by touring shows
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2014, 01:03:15 AM »

As others have mentioned, floor pockets were never a very practical idea. As far as a FOH run goes, my fave solution as touring or local personel has always been a trough up the aisle ( if there IS an aisle).  Pull the covers off, throw the mults in there, done.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Floor box use by touring shows
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2014, 01:35:48 AM »

Hi Alex-

When I put on my tour production manager hat I say "I will not use them on a train, I will not use them on a plane..." because the last 9^10 places we tried them, they didn't work.

The comment about Marley or other dance floors is spot on, too.  Put input jack fields on each side of the proscenium, and be a hero and put some more up left and up right, and put intercom runs in all of them.

If there is an orchestra pit, I'd run as many lines as the client will pay for, but at least 12 - 8 for inputs, 2 for foldback or utility and 2 for intercom.  Dry lines to your follow spot booth (4 would be spiffy but 2 will do), and 2 dry lines to both fly rail and stage manager console.
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Spenser Hamilton

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Re: Floor box use by touring shows
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2014, 02:21:38 AM »


Was the show using a 10" pipe also using analog snakes from FOH to stage? 8" pipe has been used in many large venues, but as mentioned by others most bands are using digital snakes (either coax, cat5, or fiber), so is a large pipe still actually needed? No modern digital snake uses large multi-pin connectors like the W4, which is what has traditionally driven the large conduit size needed.

Even when running coax or cat5 to FOH, I still see lots of analog drive snakes, AC, redundant lines, etc being loomed into the FOH run.


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Alex Donkle

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Re: Floor box use by touring shows
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2014, 02:43:40 AM »

Hi Alex-

When I put on my tour production manager hat I say "I will not use them on a train, I will not use them on a plane..." because the last 9^10 places we tried them, they didn't work.

The comment about Marley or other dance floors is spot on, too.  Put input jack fields on each side of the proscenium, and be a hero and put some more up left and up right, and put intercom runs in all of them.

If there is an orchestra pit, I'd run as many lines as the client will pay for, but at least 12 - 8 for inputs, 2 for foldback or utility and 2 for intercom.  Dry lines to your follow spot booth (4 would be spiffy but 2 will do), and 2 dry lines to both fly rail and stage manager console.

What's kind of amusing is that theatres have such an issue keeping their tie lines in working order, but major sports stadiums and arenas don't. All the major ones are fully pre-wired for broadcast (triax, fiber, and audio), and the TV truck crews depend on those cables working for every single game. But I digress...

On floor boxes, these are a request from the school to eliminate cable trip hazards across the stage which I fully agree with. We use wash-water tight floor boxes typically, and even if the jacks break over time XLR is one of the world's easier jacks to re-terminate so long as a service loop was left inside the box (which we always require)... I don't see floor boxes as a "substitute" for wall-plates in any case. Our standard is the same as others, AV plates at all 4-corners of the stage. The floor boxes are just additional inputs / outputs available to help prevent trip hazards.

I agree, troughs are great for FOH cabling, especially if multiple cable types are run in a bundle and you need to add a cable later. Unfortunately, they don't always work with the architecture of the house area either.

On Intercom, most high schools end up with simple 2 or 4 channel Party-Line systems, with all jacks in the theatre permanently wired in parallel. Those jacks are everywhere, backstage, FOH, spot booths, etc. HelixNet works over 2-wire cables like this when 5- or more channels are needed, but since Clear-Com discontinued most of the more advanced Party-Line gear what's being used in touring productions for 5+ channel intercom systems?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 02:46:35 AM by Alex Donkle »
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Floor box use by touring shows
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2014, 08:06:10 AM »

What's kind of amusing is that theatres have such an issue keeping their tie lines in working order, but major sports stadiums and arenas don't. All the major ones are fully pre-wired for broadcast (triax, fiber, and audio), and the TV truck crews depend on those cables working for every single game. But I digress...

On floor boxes, these are a request from the school to eliminate cable trip hazards across the stage which I fully agree with. We use wash-water tight floor boxes typically, and even if the jacks break over time XLR is one of the world's easier jacks to re-terminate so long as a service loop was left inside the box (which we always require)... I don't see floor boxes as a "substitute" for wall-plates in any case. Our standard is the same as others, AV plates at all 4-corners of the stage. The floor boxes are just additional inputs / outputs available to help prevent trip hazards.

I agree, troughs are great for FOH cabling, especially if multiple cable types are run in a bundle and you need to add a cable later. Unfortunately, they don't always work with the architecture of the house area either.

On Intercom, most high schools end up with simple 2 or 4 channel Party-Line systems, with all jacks in the theatre permanently wired in parallel. Those jacks are everywhere, backstage, FOH, spot booths, etc. HelixNet works over 2-wire cables like this when 5- or more channels are needed, but since Clear-Com discontinued most of the more advanced Party-Line gear what's being used in touring productions for 5+ channel intercom systems?

Alex,
You asked for advice from those who do touring shows.  They gave it, you are now saying why it's wrong. 
A professionally used stage floor gets nailed and screwed into, routinely has full layers of additional sheet goods applied over it in addition to dance floor surfaces that must be smooth.  It must be able to have castered platforms track correctly over a smooth surface, etc.  It is almost never seen to have floor pockets of any kind on a professional stage floor.  Not power or audio or anything else.

On the other hand many have troughs (minimum 12" wide, 8" - 10" deep) around the perimeter of the stage and possibly crisscrossing in a grid as well.  These have custom very heavy duty lids that are removeable in sections, have many extra lids that are slightly short and can be placed anywhere in the lid pattern to create openings for cable.  Where these troughs cross the pit there are also openings cast into the concrete pour for pit access into the bottom of the trough.

The mention of dry lines is a requirement for tours and is also a requirement in the sports venues that you mention.  These are separate from your intercom and audio system and merely run point to point.  They certainly could be used in house to route com or audio as needed but tours need lines for their specific com needs that are not connected through a specific power supply.  Com brands very, needs for power and distribution vary even within one brand.  In answer to your question about sports venues vs. theatres.  The broadcast specific lines in sports venues are rarely the same lines that are used for day to day operation.  Tours all carry their own so, with the exception of using a few dry lines they don't use the broadcast stuff.

Open and clear pipe with pull line is also a requirement for yours.  10" would be great.  I would never want to go less than 6" or 8" and with any of these there should be multiple pipes linking FOH (each possible location, rear of house, mid house, etc.) with monitor world and potentially the pit as well.  Many tours do still carry analogue.  These guys will simply run across the floor with their own cables before they use either house patch panels or pipes that are too small.  Also a good idea at this point to have everything available in some manner at the dock as well for truck needs.  Dry ties, sleeves through the dock wall that can access your large pipe runs to FOH, etc. are very useful for some shows.

Be sure to have plenty of power for audio, video, rigging, etc.

Lee
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Milt Hathaway

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Re: Floor box use by touring shows
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2014, 09:02:57 AM »

No modern digital snake uses large multi-pin connectors like the W4, which is what has traditionally driven the large conduit size needed.

Yeah, that's what I thought too: http://www.wireworks.com/MCat524

But seriously, there are still tours of every type out there and they all are going to use their own cable runs 99.9% of the time. If it's not too late in the planning stages there is nothing negative about spec-ing an oversized pipe for FOH cable pulls.
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Floor box use by touring shows
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2014, 09:38:37 AM »

Side note about installed intercom wiring - a couple months ago I spent about 5 hours at the invitation of a local professional theatre, tracing intercom lines to try to figure out why they had crosstalk between the two venues in their facility.  I finally found a jerry-rigged shared intercom panel in the house manager's office out in the lobby.

This sort of thing is why touring productions don't like to use house wiring.
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Floor box use by touring shows
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2014, 09:48:52 AM »

What's kind of amusing is that theatres have such an issue keeping their tie lines in working order, but major sports stadiums and arenas don't. All the major ones are fully pre-wired for broadcast (triax, fiber, and audio), and the TV truck crews depend on those cables working for every single game. But I digress...
Coax and fiber are pretty much by definition going to be dry lines run from point A to point B with nothing tapped into them. So that makes it easier. Also when the audience is anywhere from tens of thousands to millions there's a setup day to help solve problems and a significant budget to fix anything that might get in the way of the broadcast.

Quote
I agree, troughs are great for FOH cabling, especially if multiple cable types are run in a bundle and you need to add a cable later. Unfortunately, they don't always work with the architecture of the house area either.
What you can do is figure out the best reasonable path given the architecture, and train everybody in how to run snakes over that path. For instance at the Michigan Theatre in Ann Arbor the usual FOH run is from the orchestra pit through tunnels under the seating and then out a vent in the floor by FOH. A couple hands on garage creepers do the bulk of the work, and all the touring company needs to do is hand off the ends and then wait for them to appear at FOH.

Once you've found your best snake route, measure the cable length and include that in your tech specs.
[/quote]
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Jens Palm Bacher

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Re: Floor box use by touring shows
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2014, 01:47:21 PM »

Do you have a basement/room underneath the stage?
If you really want to be able to make cables "disappear" I would put a panel in the room under the stage and then just do some holes with proper covers in the stage. Much easier to keep working, and no chance of water/grime in the connectors.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Floor box use by touring shows
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2014, 01:47:21 PM »


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