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Author Topic: Youth Group sound problems  (Read 3484 times)

AndrewY.

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Youth Group sound problems
« on: October 02, 2005, 12:03:10 am »

hello, i am currently heading the AV group at our church.
we recently bought drum mics, but the kick bass sounds horrible. Its ahrd to exaplin in word but heres a shot. its a thummmmmp, not the bomb bomb. i was wundering if there are common solutions for this problem.

are main stuff are:
Allen&Heath 16:2 main
2 Mackie 1521 HF main
2 Mackie SWA1801 sub
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K.Carr

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Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2005, 12:47:16 am »

what mic are you using? is it inside the kick?( hole)
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Kevin Carr
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AndrewY.

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Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2005, 09:18:48 am »

oops sorri about that.

we are using an audix D6 and it is place inside the hole.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Youth Group sound problems-some stories
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2005, 10:58:00 am »

There are MANY issues involved in getting a good kick sound.  Below are some of them: They are in generally in the order of importance

How well the drum is tuned
Quality of the drummer
Microphone placement
Quality of the person running the sound (how the console gain/eq is setup)
Quality of the sound system-including how well it is aligned/setup/tuned whatever you want to call it.
Acoustic signature of the room you are in

and lastly the quality of the mic-assuming it is not junk.

Reminds me of the story I read in a magazine years ago when a new hotshot guy who was looking for a job at a recording studio.  He asked how long he would have to work as a grunt, before he could get to "engineer".  The owner responded 6 months.  The kid said But I know how to operate so and so recorder and so and so automated console and this high thec stuff etc etc. They showed us this in school.  The owner replied "OH for you it will be 6 years!!"  Whay asked the kid-Because the ower said-you have not learned any of the basics-such as microphone placement-building a mix-gain structure etc, just the flash.  Most people want an equipment solution to their problems, when often times the real root of the problem is in how the tools are used, not the tools themselves.

Give 3 people a hammer and you will get 3 different things.  1 guy will build a fine piece of furniture-the 2nd will build a house.  However the 3rd guy will smash his thumb and BLAME the hammer.  He just needs a better hammer I guess.



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David Henry

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Re: Youth Group sound problems-some stories
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2005, 03:46:38 pm »

My Guess-->

Either:

-You have the mic near the back of the drum,(generally you get a more thud near the front, and boom near the back)

or

-the mic is backwards inside of the drum.

At my church youth group we have a ev re-11 inside our kick, and with the right placement, eq and compression, it sounds great.

David
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AndrewY.

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Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2005, 11:59:17 pm »

i like that stroy, cuz i was just like that.



ok, im gonna havta mess with the system a little bit on friday. thanks for all your help

God Bless
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Andy Peters

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Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2005, 02:56:51 am »

AndrewY. wrote on Sat, 01 October 2005 21:03

hello, i am currently heading the AV group at our church.
we recently bought drum mics, but the kick bass sounds horrible. Its ahrd to exaplin in word but heres a shot. its a thummmmmp, not the bomb bomb. i was wundering if there are common solutions for this problem.


Tune the drum.

-a
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Brian Granaghan

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Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2005, 03:35:56 pm »

You need to mess with the compression and EQ. Set a compressor probably around 4:1 with an attack somewhere around 5ms. Also, on your EQ, crank the 5k. Depening on what mic you're using, place it right up to the beater will also help.
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Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)

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Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2005, 07:39:30 pm »

Tune the drum.
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Scott Helmke
TC Furlong, Inc.

Rory Buszka

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Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2005, 12:27:35 am »

I would agree - tune the drum. At the Campus Crusade meeting, one drummer doesn't have a well-tuned kick and the other does, and you can hear the difference.

Also, the less experienced (read: totally not knowing what they are doing because they're young and dumb and trying to act like they aren't though they are) people running sound probably have the low EQ knob on the mixing board cranked to the max and everything else cut. This Is Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Wrong. Perhaps this line of thinking comes from the idea that the kick drum provides most of the bass sound on lots of popular recordings, but bass is not the whole kick drum story, and the reason (in this case) that you would not be getting your desired kick drum sound is that you are actually cutting out with EQ the parts that you are now complaining that you are missing. Start with flat EQ on the kick drum mic. If you want it louder, crank up the trim knob more, until you get the levels of kick you want.
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Carey Davies

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Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2005, 07:09:38 am »

AndrewY. wrote on Sun, 02 October 2005 05:03

we recently bought drum mics, but the kick bass sounds horrible. Its ahrd to exaplin in word but heres a shot. its a thummmmmp, not the bomb bomb. i was wundering if there are common solutions for this problem.


If you listen to the sound of the kick drum near the mic does it sound the same thummmmmp you describe? Perhaps the drum could be better tuned? Ask the drummer to hit the kick a bit harder while you listen. Does it sound any better?

Another idea... With the channel EQ set flat, record the kick channel direct output to cassette, CD, minidisc or anything you have around, and listen to it later on headphones and local speakers, even a hifi system. That eliminates the PA system and room acoustics from the equation. Does the recording sound the same or better?

You say the mic is placed in the hole. Is it on a stand pointing through the hole, or is it inside the drum resting on a pillow or something?

As others have suggested... Check the mic is correctly positioned with its pickup head facing the beater (some mics can be confusing as to which is the front). If it is inside the drum, make sure it is resting on a blanket, pillow or something soft. Often these help damp the boominess inside the instrument. Check the channel EQ. Flat is a good place to start. Boosting LF (bass) is not usually a good idea. You may find a little cut of the LM band between 200 and 300Hz may reduce some of the 'mmmm', and a few dB boost of HM around 2kHz or higher, and HF may enhance the beater click. But this varies according to many factors.

It should be possible to get a reasonably good sound before considering adding compression. The compressor may fatten the sound, but should not be expected to fix problems with the acoustic source or mic placement. ADding a noise gate is another option when you can't get rid of a long ring (tail) after the kick is hit.

Probably your best tools in this case are your ears next to the instrument and a drummer willing to tune his kit.
Regards,
Carey
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Jim Duyck

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Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2005, 11:50:10 am »

Buy an Evans EMAD batter head.

Put it on.

Tune the drum.  

If the drummer is young and doesn't know how, find someone who does.

The D6 is a great mic.  It's got a great frequency response curve out of the box.  So, like other people said, start with the EQ flat.  

Try different mic positions and listen to the difference they make in the system.

Don't go boosting at 40 Hz on the house EQ to get more out of the kick.  The meat's at around 80 Hz.  The boom that rings out tends to hang out at around in that 150-300 Hz area.  The attack is at around 5k.  Boosting there might help bring it up in the mix.

Maybe consider a nice gate to put on it to help with excessive ring.

Lots of good advice on the thread already.  I know I just repeated some of it.
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~jim~

Adam Kane

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Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2005, 05:22:27 pm »

This may or may not be part of the problem... Confused

I've used those Mackie subs twice and in both instances, they didn't strike me as a "tight" sounding sub.  Sort of sloppy and woofy.

Depending on the size of the room and the volume you require, you may be asking too much of those subs.

Just my thoughts
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Adam "Drumrkane"

Rory Buszka

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Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2005, 03:37:26 pm »

The subs are  probably NOT part of the problem

We use some ancient Peavey RBS-1 ("Bandpass" cabinets which in this case are designed to use the resonant action of the vents to actually add gain to the sound, resulting in sloppy, woofy bass) and we still get great kick drum because we know how to adjust an EQ. I think that once these people A) determine that the drum itself is not the problem, and sounds the way by itself that they want to hear it through the system and B) learn how to set an EQ properly, they will be able to realize the kick drum sound they want. You don't solve experience problems by throwing money at nicer equipment, because better equipment does not necessarily impart better mixing ability. That is, unless the stuff is _really_ bad. I have heard Mackie subs sound good on many occasions in a variety of venues. Just make sure you have enough sub for your application.
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You always have more time than you have money.

Rory Buszka

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Youth Group sound problems
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2005, 03:37:26 pm »


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