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Author Topic: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis  (Read 30757 times)

Sammy Barr

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Re: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2014, 04:48:34 PM »

I have owned both the QW and the VR.  Both are great subs.  The VR would be my choice but I am using The QW4 over QW218 as one of my systems.  I drive the Qw subs with a Peavey IPR 7000 and am getting great results, plenty of sub without ever hitting the limiter. I highly recommend either sub.
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Peter Morris

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Re: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2014, 10:43:08 PM »

To put some perspective on this debate – the question /argument boils down using 2.83 volts to rate a speaker’s efficiency irrespective of its nominal impedance - the Danley method; or using 2.83 volts for 8 ohm and 2.0 Volts for 4 ohms – everyone else. Its not really much of an issue so long as you understand the implications.

What's important when testing or comparing a bunch of speakers that you compare apples with apples.
 
In this case for example, the Peavey QW 218 100, EV QRX 218 & JBL SRX 728 all had 4 ohm motor assemblies as did the Danley TH118. They were all tested with 2 volts except the Danley that was tested 2.8s volts.

They should all be tested with the same input voltage if you want to compare them. The solution is to just take 3 dB off the TH118 SPL plot before you compare.

If we now look at Ivan’s argument about the real impedance not being exactly 4 or 8 ohms and look at the real impedance curves (links below) you will see that between 40 and 80Hz (the nominal operating range for a sub) that  the TH118 will place a much greater load on your amplifier than the reflex loaded speakers.  The TH118 actually drops to 3 ohms at 67 Hz compared to the QW218 which is about 10 ohms at this frequency. Two TH118 speakers = 1.5 ohms @ 67Hz! Given this is right in the middle of its intended operating range I struggle to accept its nominal impedance being listed as 4 ohms but it’s probably OK...just.

I can’t find the impedance curve for the JBL, which is one of Ivan’s issues which I completely agree with.  They should publish it, however its reflex loaded sub and its impedance curve will be similar to the Peavey and EV. Its worth mentioning that the driver and the box type / alignment determine the impedance. I must also say I was impressed with Peaveys specifications in that they included 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion plots!

The other thing to note is; some of the specifications listed in this thread are whole space measurements and some ½ space. There is quite a difference ... 6 dB - see attached link.

I hope this adds something positive to the paralysis analysis discussion.

http://assets.peavey.com/literature/specs/00571310_3.pdf
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/TH-118-spec-sheet.jpg
https://www.trueaudio.com/st_spcs1.htm
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 06:46:43 PM by Peter Morris »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2014, 09:40:17 AM »

The TH118 actually drops to 3 ohms at 67 Hz compared to the QW218 which is about 10 ohms at this frequency. Two TH118 speakers = 1.5 ohms @ 67Hz! Given this is right in the middle of its intended operating range I struggle to accept its nominal impedance being listed as 4 ohms but it’s probably OK...just.



The other thing to note is; some of the specifications listed in this thread are whole space measurements and some ½ space. There is quite a difference ... 6 dB - see attached link.


I have not looked at the curves of the other speakers-but will comment that it is VERY COMMON to use LOTS of smoothing to present a freq or impedance graph.

When you use smoothing-the peaks and dips get "rounded off" so they do not appear as high or as low as they actually are.

So it depends on where the numbers come from-a smoothed response or the actual response.

And when "smoothing" there are several different methods and sometimes both are used-so it is hard to know what is exactly going on. 

First is the number of data points used.  If a data point is not present at the particular dip-then that dip simply does not show up on the plot-even if it is actually there.

Then there is the smoothing of the overall plot.

A real loudspeaker has lots of ripples.  Yes we have to use smoothing to make it make sense-but how much and where is the real question-and different people have different answers.

I have a problem with any measurement with subs in "whole space".  yes it may be a "measurement", but where in real life is that ever going to take place?

An before you answer "flown subs", consider this.  Where is the AUDIENCE?????????

In most cases they are on the ground or on a large surface.  Most people do not listen to a sound system when they are standing on a 30' ladder.

So with the audience on the ground-THEY are in a half space situation-so the half space loading IS in effect-even if the subs are flow.

It does not matter if the subs are flown or not-you only get the half space loading ONCE.

So I don't see any condition in real life that a whole space measurement would be used.

Now I am talking about subs for this-because the wavelengths are so long that the space the average person is away from the boundary really doesn't matter.

With full range speakers it is a different situation in that the wavelengths are much shorter (at the higher freq) so a whole space condition is a good starting point.

If you put a full range speaker in a half space condition then the response will get '[skewed" by the lower freq having additional loading of the boundary, but the higher freq or those controlled by the horns will not get any additional level.  As evidenced in the Peavey link you provided-the higher freq don't change with the loading.

Of course it also depends on the freq involved-the spacing from the boundary etc as to how much additional (or cancellation) is going on.

Once again-it is not always as simple as it looks or as people would like it to be
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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Chuck Simon

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Re: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2014, 11:20:30 AM »

"An before you answer "flown subs", consider this.  Where is the AUDIENCE?????????
In most cases they are on the ground or on a large surface.  Most people do not listen to a sound system when they are standing on a 30' ladder."

That is a great point and one I don't think I have ever seen written before.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2014, 11:40:09 AM »

"An before you answer "flown subs", consider this.  Where is the AUDIENCE?????????
In most cases they are on the ground or on a large surface.  Most people do not listen to a sound system when they are standing on a 30' ladder."

That is a great point and one I don't think I have ever seen written before.

Ivan is saying the *audience* is in half-space and benefits from the ground plane loading even if the speakers are in full space.  The statement is not stand-alone and requires this context to be evaluated correctly.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2014, 12:05:52 PM »

  The statement is not stand-alone and requires this context to be evaluated correctly.
As do most statements in audio.  You have to look at more than just a single point.

hence the complexity of the subject-just like impedance-watts-sensitivity-coverage pattern and so forth.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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Scott Shaw

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Re: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2014, 02:57:40 PM »

I have owned both the QW and the VR.  Both are great subs.  The VR would be my choice but I am using The QW4 over QW218 as one of my systems.  I drive the Qw subs with a Peavey IPR 7000 and am getting great results, plenty of sub without ever hitting the limiter. I highly recommend either sub.

I've been running the QW218 for about 13 years now, pushing them with a QSC PLX-3402 bridged into each sub. They sound great and I've never had a cone failure.
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2014, 03:12:08 PM »

.. yeah, that's a good point. I've been using 728s since -- I think I first bought them in 2006? -- and I also have never lost a driver on one.

-Ray

Two reasons the local large regional went with 30ish SRX728 to use with their X-Array rig:

1.  Crazy low price for the quality.
2.  Being a JBL repair center, they had never seen one in for a recone. 

I spoke with someone in JBL management about the price for 728 in a casual conversation and he said they had come to realize it was under priced. STX began showing up not long after that. 

fwiw
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2014, 04:36:49 PM »

I was with our good friend "CT" and while in his shop he showed me a pair of drivers taken from either a 718 or 728, I don't remember which. The drivers were destroyed in a manner I had never seen, not in 45 years. "CT" told me they came from subs used by a DJ, and it was not the first time he had re-coned the drivers for him. Other than that I have not heard of anyone with problems with the SRX subs, myself included.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2014, 04:53:38 PM »

I was with our good friend "CT" and while in his shop he showed me a pair of drivers taken from either a 718 or 728, I don't remember which. The drivers were destroyed in a manner I had never seen, not in 45 years. "CT" told me they came from subs used by a DJ, and it was not the first time he had re-coned the drivers for him. Other than that I have not heard of anyone with problems with the SRX subs, myself included.
Damn. That has to take some serious concerted effort. I mean granted I remember being surprised when a friend blew up Mackie 450s, after always believing they would thermal shutoff before any damage occurred yet here he was...

I guess part of me needs to be "Charlie, come on, teach the guy how to not blow up his rig," but the business man in me sees the reconing/repairs as a nice steady source of revenue. :)

-Ray
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Re: Which subs to buy? Paralysis by analysis
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2014, 04:53:38 PM »


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