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Author Topic: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps  (Read 12292 times)

Ray Aberle

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Re: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2014, 03:07:34 pm »

The standard of care for public liability purposes (trips and falls) is enough to keep me from home-made cable covers. They may satisfy the AHJ for electrical code purposes, but they won't make your insurance carrier happy. VMMV.

I would submit that anyone using a home made cable cover system should have the details ran through their insurance carrier to make sure that they'll be OK in the case of any injury...
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2014, 03:16:20 pm »

You are right to focus on which routes need to be ADA "accessible."  Not all public areas of a venue are or need to be, but if patrons are expected to need to move through, there is a strong chance that accessibility to those with mobility disabilities is required by law for the venue operator.  The standard of care for public liability purposes (trips and falls) is enough to keep me from home-made cable covers. They may satisfy the AHJ for electrical code purposes, but they won't make your insurance carrier happy. VMMV. Mark C.

We just did a fairgrounds grandstand where the track is open for lawn chairs and blankets, but is not part of the facility's ADA plan (spaces in the grandstand, with compliant ramps, companion seating, etc) and we have cabling that crosses one path.  Bet your bippy that we have ADA-compliant Yellow Jacket ramps for that crossing.  Expensive but cheaper than paying a lawyer to say "you should have done it already" and responding to regulatory complaints.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Ray Aberle

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Re: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2014, 04:45:13 pm »

Bet your bippy that we have ADA-compliant Yellow Jacket ramps for that crossing.  Expensive but cheaper than paying a lawyer to say "you should have done it already" and responding to regulatory complaints.

And that is the crux of the situation. Much better to spend the money in advance and do everything you can to make it safe then have to deal with an accident... to the person who mentioned they went into the red on a gig with renting cable ramps... that should have been a "client paying for it" expense. As in telling them, "You need to pay for this to ensure your audience safety." That way, if they refused, and you couldn't make it work in your budget to pay for them-- YOU made THEM aware of the need, and they chose to ignore it. Documented, of course.
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jasonfinnigan

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Re: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2014, 05:24:07 pm »

The pipe we use was made by the previous BE.  It's much bigger than 3".   I think it's 12" cut in thirds.  This makes a wide, low profile cover.  It's also thick enough to drive over.  If I was making more, I'd snap a chalk line down the pipe and use a circular saw.

I looked at this in CAD software. It doesn't look even remotely safe to me. Liability waiting to happen if you ask me. This is more like a parking block than a good ramp.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 05:28:11 pm by jasonfinnigan »
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jasonfinnigan

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Re: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2014, 05:40:07 pm »

And that is the crux of the situation. Much better to spend the money in advance and do everything you can to make it safe then have to deal with an accident... to the person who mentioned they went into the red on a gig with renting cable ramps... that should have been a "client paying for it" expense. As in telling them, "You need to pay for this to ensure your audience safety." That way, if they refused, and you couldn't make it work in your budget to pay for them-- YOU made THEM aware of the need, and they chose to ignore it. Documented, of course.

I'm curious if that would stand though. I think it might be the same like with electrical safety. It doesn't matter if we make the organizer aware or not and they don't want to pay for it. So if we are doing the event it's our responsibility to make sure it's complaint and safe even if they don't want to pay the extra for it. Or at least that's my take.
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Mark Cadwallader

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Re: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2014, 06:13:39 pm »

I'm curious if that would stand though. I think it might be the same like with electrical safety. It doesn't matter if we make the organizer aware or not and they don't want to pay for it. So if we are doing the event it's our responsibility to make sure it's complaint and safe even if they don't want to pay the extra for it. Or at least that's my take.

I respectfully suggest that liability issues may be a matter of contract, if the question is not safety-related. ADA regulatory compliance is generally an issue for the promoter/venue owner, but it depends on what you have contracted to do. Safety issues are another story, as you note.

"Safety" isn't necessarily a straight-forward issue. A 2x4 framed lumber guard to protect electrical cable might be OK with the electrical inspector, but not the fire marshall (as an example).  You might not need to guard a platform on stage, but maybe you would if it out in the house.  Mark C.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2014, 01:41:09 am »

I am not an attorney but if I run cables in a non public area and use these covers to protect my assets where is the liability? My gosh this is a county fair millions of ways to hurt yourselves from the decrepit grandstands to the parts flying off cars in the demolition derby.  Again not a lawyer but despite a few well publicized silly awards the concepts of assumption of risk and comparative negligence are still the core of our tort system.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS

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Re: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2014, 08:50:28 am »

Cable ramps are not any more safe than uncovered cables.  I have seen way more people twist their ankles and trip over cable ramps than uncovered cables.  If you want safety, you bury your cables with a cable trencher.  If you just need to protect your cables from potential damage from traffic you use cable ramps.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2014, 09:07:34 am »

I am not an attorney but if I run cables in a non public area and use these covers to protect my assets where is the liability? My gosh this is a county fair millions of ways to hurt yourselves from the decrepit grandstands to the parts flying off cars in the demolition derby.  Again not a lawyer but despite a few well publicized silly awards the concepts of assumption of risk and comparative negligence are still the core of our tort system.

The only issue is "what is a non-public area, and how do you keep it that way?"

In the public areas around livestock events, Kansas has provided statutory immunity from civil liability for pretty much anything involving animals.  If the grandstand collapses, it's on the owner (city, county, private facility), but if you're injured by an animal or something an animal causes to move, it's an Act of Moo for which humans cannot be sued.  But if the public manages to get into "non-public areas" there IS some liability from failure to secure the area.

NEC provides in 525 that all power cables on the ground in trafficked areas be covered as well as being rated for extra hard service.  OSHA also has requirements for areas occupied by workers.

While Yellow Jackets and similar cable protection is no guarantee that persons will not face potential injury and are not a guarantee that a jury won't be sympathetic to an injured person, it helps the provider deal with the "reasonable person" test - what would a reasonable person in the same situation have done to mitigate potential injury?  I would assert that yellow & black cable ramps are one such thing.  Also the nature of the cause of a slip/fall/twisted ankle can be from the cable rolling under foot, not just tripping on the cable.  The ramp prevents contact with the cable - it cannot roll under foot, nor is the cable loose to trip over; the bright yellow/black color scheme presents the highest contrast & visibility to the human eye.  While none of these will prevent determined human silliness or inattention they are used every day to mitigate the results of human behavior.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Mike Karseboom

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Re: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2014, 01:16:50 am »

Cable ramps are not any more safe than uncovered cables.  I have seen way more people twist their ankles and trip over cable ramps than uncovered cables.  If you want safety, you bury your cables with a cable trencher.  If you just need to protect your cables from potential damage from traffic you use cable ramps.


+1 and a half. It is alarming watching them go down so often regardless of how low profile the ramps are.  On pavement there is no way to win with cables on the ground.  You either let your cables take a beating or you trip people.  Fortunately for most of my street gigs wireless mixing is a very good and acceptable  alternative.
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Re: Yellow Jackets/Cable Ramps
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2014, 01:16:50 am »


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