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Author Topic: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array  (Read 37887 times)

Peter Morris

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Re: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2014, 07:21:00 pm »

What makes that more intelligible? 

There are a lot of things that make a sound more intelligible-but "getting more freq into the horn" is not one I am aware of.

Now having a horn that is LARGE enough to CONTROL the freq is a good step in the right direction.

But having a lower crossover point into a HF driver on a horn that is to small is NOT the right direction.  Below where the horn has control it will simply "spew" sound everywhere-which is NOT what you want for intelligibility.

Sometimes it is better to cross over higher and let the mid drivers natural narrowing at the higher freq take care of the "pattern control" at that point.

It is NOT where the crossover freq is-in fact in a GOOD design you should NOT be able to tell where the crossover freq is.  The BEST design will act as a single driver.

So who cares where the crossover freq is if it is not noticeable?

Unless there is something I am missing here.

You could argue the crossover frequency should be determined by the size of the drivers you use in the array. You really need them to cross over so that the drivers are located less than a wavelength apart relative to their highest operating frequency.  Assuming you are using 2 x 10 inch drivers and allow a little for the box think in terms of 600Hz or less otherwise you have excessive combe filtering and cancellation, as you know ;)

Then the horn and driver have to be large enough to load down to this frequency as well as producing a wave front that will combine with its neighbours without too many issues. Some do this much better than others.
I was amazed the other day listening to one of the latest and greatest new line-arrays that I could not hear any stereo image!   Dont know why that was ::)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 09:39:05 pm by Peter Morris »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2014, 08:05:35 pm »

You could argue the crossover frequencies are determined by the size of the drivers you use in the array. You really need them to cross over so that the drivers are located less than a wavelength apart of the highest operating frequency.  Assuming you are using 2 x 10 inch drivers and allow a little for the box think in terms of 600Hz or less otherwise you have excessive combe filtering and cancellation (as you know ).
Then the horn and driver have to be large enough to load down to this frequency as well as producing a wave front that will combine with its neighbours without too many issues. Some do this much better than others.
I was amazed the other day listening to one of the latest and greatest new line-arrays that I could not hear any stereo image!   Dont know why that was ::)
So lets use your example. Let's assume a "typical 10" line array box.

For a 600hz crossover the vertical horn size would need to be about 165" tall.

The size of a horn that would control down to that freq with that narrow of a vertical pattern would have to be 165" tall.  THATS a big cabinet-------

The reason you did not hear stereo imaging is due to the interference of the different devices arriving at your ears at different times.

One of the "tests" of a "well behaved" set of speakers is to listen to a stereo recording and see if there is a "phantom" image in the middle.

It should be very strong as if there was another speaker in the middle.  An individual speaker can sound very good-and even very close to another speaker.  But when you put them in the "stereo test", it can quickly become apparent.

It is this same "self interference" that keeps some speakers from "holding together" over long distances.

A single driver speaker (or one that acts as such) will have a great phantom image and hold together over a long distance.
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Dennis Wiggins

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Re: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2014, 08:24:16 pm »

...please, let's end this discussion until someone has actual experience with this specific product.

$1300 plus change...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Compact-Line-Array-Package-3x10-Subwoofer-Pair-of-2x5-Speakers-and-Two-Frames-/141402882406?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Speakers_Monitors&hash=item20ec44c166

This (sincerely) is not a slam to those who are, in earnest, preaching to the choir.  We need an actual review; not conjecture.

Thanks Y'all,
Dennis
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 08:30:55 pm by Dennis Wiggins »
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Peter Morris

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Re: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array
« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2014, 09:36:37 pm »

So lets use your example. Let's assume a "typical 10" line array box.

For a 600hz crossover the vertical horn size would need to be about 165" tall.

The size of a horn that would control down to that freq with that narrow of a vertical pattern would have to be 165" tall.  THATS a big cabinet-------

The reason you did not hear stereo imaging is due to the interference of the different devices arriving at your ears at different times.

One of the "tests" of a "well behaved" set of speakers is to listen to a stereo recording and see if there is a "phantom" image in the middle.

It should be very strong as if there was another speaker in the middle.  An individual speaker can sound very good-and even very close to another speaker.  But when you put them in the "stereo test", it can quickly become apparent.

It is this same "self interference" that keeps some speakers from "holding together" over long distances.

A single driver speaker (or one that acts as such) will have a great phantom image and hold together over a long distance.

You could argue the crossover frequency should be determined by the size of the drivers you use. You need the drivers to be located less than a wavelength apart relative to their highest operating frequency.  Assuming you are using 2 x 10 inch drivers and allow a little for the box, think in terms of 600Hz or less, otherwise you will have excessive comb filtering and cancellation - as you know  ;).

The horn and HF driver then has to be large enough to load down to this frequency as well as producing a wave front that will combine with its neighbours without too many issues. Some do this much better than others.

I was amazed the other day when listening to one of the latest and greatest new line-arrays that I could not hear any stereo image! 
 
Dont know why that was  :o
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Peter Morris

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Re: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array
« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2014, 10:48:14 pm »

Firstly sorry for the double post the internet crashed in the middle me posting etc.


So lets use your example. Let's assume a "typical 10" line array box.
For a 600hz crossover the vertical horn size would need to be about 165" tall.
The size of a horn that would control down to that freq with that narrow of a vertical pattern would have to be 165" tall.  THATS a big cabinet-------


Yes, but if all the cabinets play well together then its the total length that counts. 165 is not large for a line-array. 
The next problem is the width of the horn needed to get good horizontal pattern control and behaviour tends to make the spacing of 10 drivers (for example) too wide.

Quote

The reason you did not hear stereo imaging is due to the interference of the different devices arriving at your ears at different times.
One of the "tests" of a "well behaved" set of speakers is to listen to a stereo recording and see if there is a "phantom" image in the middle.
It should be very strong as if there was another speaker in the middle.  An individual speaker can sound very good-and even very close to another speaker.  But when you put them in the "stereo test", it can quickly become apparent.


Absolutely! I must say I was amazed that in 2014 I could not hear an image.  What surprised me was so many people did not notice it, but they noticed the name on the box.

Quote

It is this same "self interference" that keeps some speakers from "holding together" over long distances.
A single driver speaker (or one that acts as such) will have a great phantom image and hold together over a long distance.


Yes, and as I said above, some are better than others.  I always have a rock solid stereo image with our line-arrays.

Typical line-arrays throw or maintain quality articulate sound for about 200 ft, more recently the better designs will do about twice that.

FWIW the frequency / impulse plot I posted for you on soundforums the other day had a stereo image that was so good that as you walked forward between the two speakers it felt like the singer walked from in front of you straight through your body and was behind you it felt quite weird to do this.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 03:30:22 am by Peter Morris »
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Robert Weston

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Re: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2014, 07:18:08 am »

...please, let's end this discussion until someone has actual experience with this specific product.

$1300 plus change...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Compact-Line-Array-Package-3x10-Subwoofer-Pair-of-2x5-Speakers-and-Two-Frames-/141402882406?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Speakers_Monitors&hash=item20ec44c166

This (sincerely) is not a slam to those who are, in earnest, preaching to the choir.  We need an actual review; not conjecture.

Thanks Y'all,
Dennis

It would be nice to see an actual review, however...

To define "forum":
"a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged."

The conjecturing and bantering is great!  I've learned a lot from these!
 
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Luke Geis

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Re: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2014, 11:59:45 pm »

What makes that more intelligible? 

There are a lot of things that make a sound more intelligible-but "getting more freq into the horn" is not one I am aware of.

Now having a horn that is LARGE enough to CONTROL the freq is a good step in the right direction.

Unless there is something I am missing here.

My point was simply that having the bulk of the frequencies coming from a part of the speaker that is in essence not a horn ( which will have a somewhat omni pattern ) will smear all over the walls in a lively room. Nothing more, nothing less. Having more frequencies in a horn, be it a horn loaded speaker, or a properly designed CD horn for a conventional/line array box, should net higher intelligibility. I will not argue about what makes a speaker tick with you. I am certain we know who has that one licked :) From my knowledge though, an LA speaker will have issues with such a high crossover point. The specs of the box in question does not mention if one of the drivers is crossed over at a different frequency to help with comb filtering. If both of the low drivers are running the same there will be issues with replicating frequencies up that high.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array
« Reply #77 on: October 11, 2014, 03:37:18 am »

Also the lack of pattern data and the general hype with no fact PR application oriented marketing make it hard to see as a serious effort.

The people that buy these don't read specs anyway.  If they are loud they are going to be happy.  Reality doesn't matter.  You can't  even talk to them.  I have approached guys pushing cheap cabinets into audible distress. I used all the diplomacy and professional detachment I could muster and have never gotten anywhere. 

The people that buy these things just are not trained.  It's a viscous cycle.  The folks that know what they are doing forced to operate this gear do the best they can and get all they can get out of what they hear.

Being a capitalist I can't fault a company for filling a niche.  Let's be honest people are going to buy these things,  probably on credit, it will be the purchase of a lifetime.  When you have emotion in play reason goes out the window.

We all love gear but hopefully can be objective.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array
« Reply #78 on: October 11, 2014, 06:08:15 am »

My point was simply that having the bulk of the frequencies coming from a part of the speaker that is in essence not a horn ( which will have a somewhat omni pattern ) will smear all over the walls in a lively room. Nothing more, nothing less.
Regular speaker do get directional as the freq goes up.  The larger speakers get mroe directional at a given freq than smaller ones do.

Hence the problem of using a 15" and horn in most cases.  The 15" starts to beam before the horn takes over-causing a Christmas tree effect in the coverage pattern.

A horn can be pretty omni also-if it is not LARGE enough.  Something most people jus simply want to forget or ignore.

It takes SIZE to have pattern control.  And the lower the freq the larger the size has to be.  And the narrower the pattern (at a given freq) the larger the horn has to be.

It is truly sad-but MANY PA speakers only have their rated patterns in the top couple of octaves and not down where it really matters for intelligibility.

But that makes for a smaller-lighter box-cheaper box and the general public "thinks" they are getting something that they are not.
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Hayden J. Nebus

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Re: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array
« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2014, 08:15:21 am »

/snip

It is truly sad-but MANY PA speakers only have their rated patterns in the top couple of octaves and not down where it really matters for intelligibility.

But that makes for a smaller-lighter box-cheaper box and the general public "thinks" they are getting something that they are not.

"Specifications subject to change" = "we reserve the right  to de-rate anything you call is out on... If we don't change drivers first"

Aimed at no one in particular.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Seismic Audio LINE Array ? WOW Everybody wants a line array
« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2014, 08:15:21 am »


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