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Author Topic: How do you stop things like this?  (Read 8227 times)

Mike Sokol

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2014, 10:00:47 am »

I agree that it does not make sense, and that it is unacceptable. I was merely speculating (guessing) at the thought process behind the construction details.  Mark C.

I already sent the seller an email telling him it was dangerous and he could be liable for damages if the person he sells it to is injured or their sound and lighting equipment is damaged. Don't think he listened to me, but I took a shot. 
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Tim Weaver

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2014, 11:47:47 am »

I saw this ad today, I was tempted to buy it just to get it off the streets.

http://greensboro.craigslist.org/msg/4659990782.html


I would happily give him $200 for it. I would then grab the 10/4 and the case and put it in my truck. Then I would watch the guys face as I backed over the disconnect with that same truck....
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frank kayser

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2014, 12:16:01 pm »


Yes, a POS and a disaster waiting to happen...

Which begs the question (somewhat)


Is there ANY PLACE in pro sound for a "home-made" distro... 
I know there is the knowledge and expertise of MANY on this board who could design and implement a code-compliant SAFE distro. 


I'm assuming the liability of using such a device would render the point moot, however.


frank
 
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2014, 12:27:25 pm »

Is there ANY PLACE in pro sound for a "home-made" distro... 
I know there is the knowledge and expertise of MANY on this board who could design and implement a code-compliant SAFE distro. 

I'm assuming the liability of using such a device would render the point moot, however.

Can you build a safe, reliable home-made distro? Absolutely. There's no reason that you can't build it to the same level of safety and quality as a UL panel shop, observing all codes and best practices.

But it's the liability issue. If you have the panel inspected by an appropriate AHJ, your liability may be lower (but you may be in violation of your liability insurance and your claim may be denied). If you are a UL panel shop, you still have some liability, but you also have insurance that covers that.

So that leaves this question: is the money you save worth the financial risk in being sued? I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the United States, anyone can sue anyone else for anything. Some people will sue someone even if they know they will lose, simply to punish the other guy. The defendant, even if he wins or the case is dismissed, still has to pay a tremendous amount of money in court and attorney fees.
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2014, 02:00:57 pm »


So that leaves this question: is the money you save worth the financial risk in being sued? I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the United States, anyone can sue anyone else for anything. Some people will sue someone even if they know they will lose, simply to punish the other guy. The defendant, even if he wins or the case is dismissed, still has to pay a tremendous amount of money in court and attorney fees.

So you spend the money and buy pre-made, and that is going to keep you out of court?

If you build it yourself and do it right you can argue you did your due diligence, right?

If you buy off the shelf, and it is substandard with a bogus UL label did you do your due diligence?

If someone gets seriously hurt at a gig, likely they will come looking for deep pockets no matter what you are using.
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Steve Swaffer

Jonathan Johnson

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2014, 03:01:15 pm »

If someone gets seriously hurt at a gig, likely they will come looking for deep pockets no matter what you are using.

True, but a manufactured product versus a home-brew product generally provides a better defense. And since the manufacturer probably has deeper pockets than you, they are the bigger target.
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Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2014, 03:10:23 pm »

Scary to think of how many boxes like that get used on a regular basis....

How do you stop it?

Don't go on Craigslist...
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frank kayser

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2014, 03:10:55 pm »

So you spend the money and buy pre-made, and that is going to keep you out of court?

If you build it yourself and do it right you can argue you did your due diligence, right?

If you buy off the shelf, and it is substandard with a bogus UL label did you do your due diligence?

If someone gets seriously hurt at a gig, likely they will come looking for deep pockets no matter what you are using.


This can be as depressing as it is enlightening...



Reading this Power Forum, recognizing the shallowness of one's own knowledge, lack of experience and the very real perils from the power, and more likely from the Powers that Be, it does make one just want to live out one's life in a vacuum bottle... Safe and Sound.  however...


We soldier on, trying to recognize risks, and minimize the effects of those same risks, all without losing house and home, let alone the business.
One must be aware of the various levels of exposure (physical and legal), and choose (hopefully wisely) a level of risk they are willing to assume.


Everything Stephen writes here are real possibilities. 
- pre-made from a "trusted" source with UL  - things are misused or things go wrong.
- perfect with my due diligence - UL label trumps.
- "Counterfeit" or product with "bogus UL label" - should have bought from a reputable dealer


Small guys get swept up in the quest for deep pockets to sue, and can be financially ruinous.


Nothing is safe in and of itself - every day we deal with a layered approach to safety, both our physical selves and clients, and protection from Suit Sharks.
eg,
- colored wire insulation to help reduce wiring errors end to end
- More insulation
- box clamps
- boxes (except Austrailia...)
- cable staples
- approved outlets
- cover plates
- double insulated tools


No one of which would make a appliance safe, but each adds its own layer of protection. 
Just like
- buying from a reputable dealer
- known brand
- UL label
- warranty registration (to know of recalls)
- Use according to instructions


Courts appreciate layers of efforts.


frank
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2014, 08:00:39 pm »

Courts appreciate layers of efforts.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), courts (judges and juries) are not experts in the subjects of the cases brought before them. They depend on plaintiffs and defendants to educate them on the subject at hand. The success of that education often decides the case, and is the reason that expert witnesses are called.

For example, the defendant may truly be at fault due to his own stupidity. If the plaintiff's legal team successfully educates the jury as to the perils involved, but the defendant's legal team utterly fails to educate the jury as to the product quality, due diligence, and safety measures undertaken, as well as the defendant's own liability, there is high likelihood the case will be decided in the defendant's favor.

A jury comprised of electricians and audio engineers probably might have a preconceived bias in favor of the defendant in a liability case against a sound provider.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2014, 08:39:21 am »

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), courts (judges and juries) are not experts in the subjects of the cases brought before them. They depend on plaintiffs and defendants to educate them on the subject at hand. The success of that education often decides the case, and is the reason that expert witnesses are called.

Educating lawyers is also part of it. I've been an expert witness a few times on computer database corruption (see, I'm not just a pretty face who does live sound and AC Power) and found that the lawyers knew nearly nothing about the "facts" of the case. So I spent a full day educating them about what a "bit" or "byte" was, and how data could be corrupted accidentally or on purpose. I've got to admit, when they were doing their courtroom thing they really sounded like they understood what they were saying. But I knew these were just words to them and they did not have an in-depth understanding of the technology. I'm sure the same thing would happen in a courtroom deciding the merits of a lawsuit about a power problem. I find that most people (your average jury) have little or no understanding of voltage, current, grounding, bonding, shocks, electrocution, etc... They will depend on the lawyers and prosecutors to explain it all to them.
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Mike Sokol
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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2014, 08:39:21 am »


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