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Author Topic: How do you stop things like this?  (Read 7394 times)

Stephen Swaffer

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2014, 05:30:37 pm »

I agree it looks like 3 phase 4 wire-with the blue going to neutral lug-likely sees no need to connect both a white wire and a green wire in parallel from the panel to the disconnect.  He did use the accepted colors for the 3 phase wires though.

I have found it very, very difficult to get others in a church environment to be willing to spend money/time/effort on electrical safety-unless you can point to another church and say, "The pastor got electrocuted in the baptismal tank-maybe we should consider safety...."-you almost have to prove that someone got hurt doing exactly the same thing.
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Steve Swaffer

Scott Holtzman

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2014, 06:07:36 pm »

I agree it looks like 3 phase 4 wire-with the blue going to neutral lug-likely sees no need to connect both a white wire and a green wire in parallel from the panel to the disconnect.  He did use the accepted colors for the 3 phase wires though.

I have found it very, very difficult to get others in a church environment to be willing to spend money/time/effort on electrical safety-unless you can point to another church and say, "The pastor got electrocuted in the baptismal tank-maybe we should consider safety...."-you almost have to prove that someone got hurt doing exactly the same thing.

I dated a girl in Jacksonville and she asked if we could go to her family church one sunday.  At the time I was with First Baptist Jacksonville that had very forward thinking AV department, had just built a new building and we were doing a live feed over STL for a local broadcast channel.  I was young, maybe late 20's at the time but had been blessed to work around brutal seasoned techs that simply would not take anything less than perfect.  I thank each and every one of them today for every connector I had to remake.  Anyway as usual I am digressing.

So we get to her church and let's just say the service was less "energetic" not even a choir.  So they had  few baptisms and I noticed that he was using a corded microphone.  Now I was paying attention.

Surprisingly after the service her father (an elder) asked me to take a look at the sound system.  It was in a wall mounted cabinet old Bogen, I do think it was solid state.  The baptismal area was sub-tended by a classic shure four input dial broadcast mixer.  The cabinet had not been cleaned in 10 plus years.  The pots were so noisy you would not believe it.  They had 70v distribution with small 8" two ways every couple of feet on the wall. 

So I went to have look at the the mic by the pool.  It was wrapped in friction tape.  I assumed for gripping purposes with wet hands.  Well it turns out that it was to keep from getting shocked.  When I talked to him he said it was bad when he forgot and put his lips to the windscreen.  So like any good engineer I stuck my hand in the pool had my girlfriend hold the mic and in a controlled and professional manner gingerly touched the windscreen to assess the potential.  It wasn't as bad as I thought, much like being hit with ring voltage while working on a punch block.

I could not agree more, the OP, the dog wash, this guy, we could go on and on.  It's just sad that people have to get hurt or killed before people will pay attention.  We had a young boy killed on a carnival ride a few years ago and it raised awareness for awhile. 

It should not be this way, and business should not be lost to fools who are willing to break the rules for unscrupulous owners, organizers etc.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Tim McCulloch

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2014, 06:26:05 pm »

The blue looks like it goes to neutral lug but the black clamp goes to a fuse.  I am sure he just didn't know any better.

I have seen these used locally, including at a church dogwash that had booths for local pet vendors and a small stage for the youth band.  I was freaked out with all the tubs of water and wet barefoot children running around.  I could not convince anyone to do anything about it and even by cop buddy said it was a code enforcement issue.

I requested a meeting with the pastor and whomever was reasonable for this mess.  My reward?  They don't call me for work anymore.

Churches have a vested interest in having folks "meet their maker."  I call it criminal negligence.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Frank DeWitt

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2014, 06:44:42 pm »

The trouble with churches they will let anyone in.

Thank God they let me in.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2014, 07:40:06 pm »

The trouble with churches they will let anyone in.

That's not the problem. The problem is that they let anyone work on technical and life/safety issues.
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Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Frank DeWitt

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2014, 11:10:24 pm »

That's not the problem. The problem is that they let anyone work on technical and life/safety issues.

Some do.  Some would never do that.  My point is that churches are run by people.  They have a good chance of receiving forgiveness and grace and salvation, but they don't get any special wisdom.  I wish it were not so. It breaks my heart that churches preach the word every Sunday to congregations that can not understand it because of the acoustics and sound systems and of coarse it is crazy that they let anyone work on technical and life/safety issues. That is wrong.  But we can't expect any more of them then any other group of people.  We just need to educate them.  The people that run the church, the people that run the lions club or the American legion, ETC.  they need education. 
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2014, 11:18:03 pm »

FWIW, I intended nothing against churches-I am very heavily involved, but even from the inside I find it hard to raise the issue without being seen as a critic.  I'm not sure if it is because "they" have gotten away with substandard so long without any issues?

Back to the OP.  As for buying it to get it off the street-it looks almost new.  Hopefully he is not "manufacturing" these to make money?  Obviously, IF he is buying the 10-4 SO he can't be making much, but stranger things have happened.
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Mark Cadwallader

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2014, 11:47:33 pm »

I'm confused.... it looks to be 3 -- but he has L14-30 twist on 10/4, so that's not enough conductors... oww... my head....

I'll offer my best guess, since I can play along from home.


The two red clamps are for the "hots". (Just like jumper cables for your car.)

The black clamp is for the "other" wire - a/k/a the neutral. It is fused, and downstream of the fuse it becomes the blue wire. (Left hand side of the box.)

The small guage blue wire upstream of the box is the ground. It is not fused, and downstream becomes white in color (colour) as it heads to the female connector mounted to the box. Note that it appears to be bonded to the "neutral" wire - which is now blue.

240 volt split phase, at an unknown amp rating (despite the use of what appears to be an L14-30 connector).

If you are used to working on 12vdc automotive wiring, it might kinda make sense....
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Chris Hindle

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2014, 08:06:16 am »

If you are used to working on 12vdc automotive wiring, it might kinda make sense....
As a retired auto mechanic, NO. No sense at all.
As an Audio Dude, NO. No sense at all.
It is un-safe, and depending on how someone connects those 3 alligator clips, quite dangerous.
Would you prefer no ground, or no neutral ? Neither is acceptable to me.
If that POS ever goes near 3 phase, I could see 3 hots getting connected. No neutral or ground.
Say goodby to your rig.
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Ya, Whatever. Just throw a '57 on it, and get off my stage.

Mark Cadwallader

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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2014, 09:57:57 am »

As a retired auto mechanic, NO. No sense at all.
As an Audio Dude, NO. No sense at all.
It is un-safe, and depending on how someone connects those 3 alligator clips, quite dangerous.
Would you prefer no ground, or no neutral ? Neither is acceptable to me.
If that POS ever goes near 3 phase, I could see 3 hots getting connected. No neutral or ground.
Say goodby to your rig.

I agree that it does not make sense, and that it is unacceptable. I was merely speculating (guessing) at the thought process behind the construction details.  Mark C.
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Re: How do you stop things like this?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2014, 09:57:57 am »


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