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Author Topic: Line arrays explained!  (Read 42591 times)

Hayden J. Nebus

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Re: Line arrays explained!
« Reply #130 on: September 18, 2014, 01:13:08 pm »

Yes ...

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/installed-sound/cbt-series#.VBrqaGkiPq4

I should have mentioned that I'm aware of his Harman patent and the associated JBL product line. I'd be interested in applications of the concept at scale.

My intention was to point out there's ways of beam-shaping that don't require large amounts of processing, and that vertical arrays can in fact be massaged into relative uniformity, IF you're willing to pay the cost.

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Line arrays explained!
« Reply #131 on: September 18, 2014, 01:37:47 pm »

I guess I may have been a bit "over zealous" in some of my posts.  I apologize if it was a bit "over the top".

But I am very passionate in audio-I always have been for many decades, and always search to find the REAL ANSWER-not just some marketing BS.

At my previous job (installs) we had reps that did not want to show product if I was going to be there.  They would actually ask if somebody else could evaluate the product they were pushing.  This is because they knew that I would tell them the truth about what I thought about the product-good or bad.  They only wanted to hear the good and wanted us to "buy into" what they were selling-even if it was wrong for our uses or did not work as intended.

But ORIGINAL topic was about the misconception of line arrays.

There is A LOT of misconceptions on both line arrays and point and shoot cabinets-by manufacturers and users.  It is very important to realize the advantages and disadvantages of all different types of systems

Far to few people actually measure-verify what they are being told as "the gospel".

They just take what somebody says a believes it-and then they spread around the "untruths".

If I could have one "wish" for our industry, it would be that knowledge base of the users would be higher and that they have a better understanding of what is REALLY going on-to help see through the "mud".

One of the ways that this can happen is the sharing of our hard earned knowledge and experience with those who are willing to learn and listen.  We all need to work together.

The other part of this would be for users to actually hold manufacturers responsible for the specs/performance of the products.  Does it do what you say it does?  If not WHY?

But since there is no regulation in our industry, manufacturers are free to say and put out whatever specs they want to and nobody questions why.

While I am not "a child of the 60s" (but was a child IN the 60s)  I do totally agree with one of the sayings (but with a twist).  It was  "Question authority".  I say "Question what somebody tells you".  Measure it-verify it BE SURE it is right.

All that I have trying to do here is to say-Look- here are some examples and reasons why I say what I do.

If I have been wrong, please feel free to point that out.  After all, that is part of what forums (especially professional ones like this) is for.

I feel this forum is the most professional audio/PA forum out there (at least that I am aware of) and has much less "noise floor" issues and offers a GREAT service to our industry.

When I was "learning" what I was doing (back in the 'ol days), we had VERY FEW sources of information and sharing of information.  There was no internet and all we had were a few books in the library and what information we could gather by our own experiences and try to pick out the correct information from people we would work with.  There was and still is LOTS of bad information-even from "top" touring guys being passed around.

I do like the fact that if somebody makes a wrong or incorrect statement here, it will be corrected.  So there is less misinformation around (as compared to other audio forums) that are more about the "good buddy" and everybody makes great gear type of attitude.

I will "back off" a bit, but remember-always search for the truth.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Line arrays explained!
« Reply #132 on: September 18, 2014, 01:55:24 pm »

  We all know there are good designs and poor designs.  I do know that the design that was existing at that stadium was quite poor (from what was obvious in pictures, I have never been there), so I really do hope your system design is better then the last system design. 

 I say this in that I have heard bad Danley installs, just as I have heard bad installs from the other company above. Also, you don't see that other company talking about the Jericho's they have replaced with their product.
Just in response to this.

The previous system was designed by one of the MAJOR audio contractors in the world and used the most recognized loudspeaker manufacturer and their top of the line products.

The current design was by the SAME company and the install was by the same company as the previous system-which was only a couple of years old.

There are poor installs and bad designs by all sorts of people and no doubt there are installs that do not work as well as they should-due to design or install.

I am not aware of any Jericios that have been replaced.  If there are, I would be interested in hearing where and why.

I do know that there was a really nice system in a Church that was replaced (the local reps and dealers used it as a"flagship" demo room) because the new Mof M came in and JUST HAD to have a line array.

And from what I have heard the sound is much worse than with the previous install, but it gave the MofM "the warm fuzzies" because he got what he wanted-not that it was better.

But that sort of thing happens all over the place.  Gear gets replaced because somebody simply "feels better" with some gear over others.

And then there are cases in which there is a HUGE difference in the performance that everybody in the audience notices.  Those are the ones we like
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Hayden J. Nebus

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Re: Line arrays explained!
« Reply #133 on: September 18, 2014, 02:54:55 pm »

I'm sure that was the first ever Clair install ever to be bungled   ;) There's a less than appropriate Clair LA hung in a nightclub here in Richmond that corroborates my above statement.

The original configuration featured HF drivers driven by MF processing and vice-versa, all nicely dressed in the rack and zip-tied down as if it was done by the integrator.       

You're never too big to screw the pooch.



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Art Welter

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Re: Line arrays explained!
« Reply #134 on: September 18, 2014, 03:00:41 pm »

In our larger systems we do use a radian supplied motor assembly along with a heavily modified version of the Materion Truextent 100mm diaphragm, and we are very proud of the performance we have been able to achieve with this assembly. In fact our modified diaphragm / voice coil assembly will produce an order of magnitude less power compression (10x less in the 10-70 watts range) than the standard hifi optimized Treuextent diaphragm. The current driver is more robust than the TAD 4000 series ever was, it uses a totally different type of BE process for greater strength, it can hit the phase plug (never should but it can) without shattering.
 
We also enveloped the first totally new Beryllium compression driver in more than a decade and that is what we use in the al-4 and al-8.  This was a totally ground up design including dome geometry, voice coil, phase plug and magnetic assembly. 

Ken Berger
CEO VUE Audiotechnik
Founder of EAW, Prosoundweb.com, VUE Audiotechnik
Kenneth,

Learn something new every day,  thought Kenton Forsythe founded EAW, still remember those 1978 Carlo Sound CS-3s and the long string of KFs over the decades.

In testing a variety of HF drivers using diaphragms of most "flavors" other than Be,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/212240-high-frequency-compression-driver-evaluation.html
with musical peak testing found the cheapest driver, an Eminence PSD 2002 to have only .9 dB of power compression from 11.5 watts to 115 watts, an EV DH1A to have only .9 dB power compression from .73 watts to 73 watts. An order of magnitude difference at that level of power compression would be less than 1/10th of a dB for those two drivers. Even using sine waves, the power compression was slight, though I did not conduct long duration tests.

How long were your tests, and what level of power compression in dB do your drivers have compared to the standard Treuextent diaphragm?

Using both sine waves and music revealed the  "elephant in the room" was although all the drivers could survive their AES  power ratings, harmonic distortion reached 10% at levels an order of magnitude below rated power, the best case being around 10% at 8 watts.

Having not tested any Be diaphragm drivers, I'm curious as to the level of distortion you have measured in the 10-70 watts range, any improvement in that regard?

Art
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Randy Pence

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Re: Line arrays explained!
« Reply #135 on: September 19, 2014, 03:51:35 pm »

I agree.  I own some Danley products and appreciate Ivan and Tom's contributions generally, but I'm a little tired out from the repetition in this thread and elsewhere on the forum lately.  We've heard the "point sources are better" story about 15 times in this thread alone, complete with multiple postings of the SM80 video, and generally the attitude that anyone who isn't running a show of 0-5000 people with a pair of SM80s is an idiot.  Perhaps the intention isn't marketing, but it sure seems to be the result.

Let's give it a rest for a while.

While this might feature an example of a bigger sibling (sh96ho), there might be 5k people between the speakers and the camera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIhzBgzWUUc

You seem to be missing the point that it isnt about whether the box in question will be loud enough but whether the sound remains intact at the distances involved. If you need more volume, get a louder box.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Line arrays explained!
« Reply #136 on: September 19, 2014, 04:01:42 pm »

While this might feature an example of a bigger sibling (sh96ho), there might be 5k people between the speakers and the camera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIhzBgzWUUc

You seem to be missing the point that it isnt about whether the box in question will be loud enough but whether the sound remains intact at the distances involved. If you need more volume, get a louder box.
I'm not missing any points, and I don't disagree with what Ivan is saying.  I've personally heard the SH60, SH96HO, and SH64, and I own TH118s (and an evil lyin'-array).  I am questioning the Danley-dominated discussion, and the seeming disbelief that there are reasons to own gear that doesn't say Danley on it.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Line arrays explained!
« Reply #136 on: September 19, 2014, 04:01:42 pm »


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