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Author Topic: Speaker placement suggestions...  (Read 5145 times)

Chris Edwards

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Speaker placement suggestions...
« on: August 18, 2014, 05:12:13 pm »

I'm providing sound for an event next week in a room that measures 120' x 50'.  The room is an old bank so we are talking marble and concrete for the walls and floor.  The venue manager recommended 6 SOS to help with the sound.  I can see their logic and may follow the advice.  The job will consist of pre-recorded music and some speeches from guests at their tables on the main floor.  Two thirds of the room will be used for dining while the other third is for dancing later in the evening. 

My main concerns are speaker placement to help with the reverb and if feedback issues.  I was also thinking of incorporating subs near the dancefloor for the dancing portion. 

Thoughts?

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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 05:16:18 pm »

What's the orientation...longways or short?

Use as few as possible.  Get them up as high as possible and tilt them down.  Accept no excuses NOT to...
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Chris Edwards

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 05:27:03 pm »

What's the orientation...longways or short?

Use as few as possible.  Get them up as high as possible and tilt them down.  Accept no excuses NOT to...

I will say the orientation will be short. The venue stated that they do 3 speakers on both sides of the room along the long sides.

The dancefloor portion is at one end of the room but it is not the focus of the night until later in the evening.  During the first portion of the evening it will just be background music and speeches from the dinner tables (not my call).

I can get the speakers up high but I do not have a tilt option on the cabinets.  That is a great idea though.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 05:35:09 pm »

Buy tilt adaptors for your stands.

Personally, I'd go with four instead of 6, but you want the venue/sponsor to be comfortable.  But no matter what, tilting is a good thing.

They must be thinking of three/side facing the middle.  OK for voice, I guess, but you'll want something else entirely to cover the dance floor....another system, probably.

Wire up the six facing speakers such that you can take the speaking mic(s) out of the one which they're standing in front of...
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 05:42:20 pm »

2 speakers at front with 2 more pairs along the sides progressively delayed to the front pair to maximize intelligibility for the speaking portion of the event, and when the dance starts turn these second two pairs off.
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Scott Harris

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 06:02:38 pm »

Possibly the best deal on speaker tilters and prime delivery if you have it.

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WB511A/
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Chris Edwards

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 06:12:22 pm »

Possibly the best deal on speaker tilters and prime delivery if you have it.

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WB511A/

What is the weight limit on these?  My cabinets are 62lbs.
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Tom Roche

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 06:40:38 pm »

What is the weight limit on these?  My cabinets are 62lbs.

According to K&M the max load for this tilter is 25 kg.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 06:51:12 pm »

I'm providing sound for an event next week in a room that measures 120' x 50'.  The room is an old bank so we are talking marble and concrete for the walls and floor.  The venue manager recommended 6 SOS to help with the sound.  I can see their logic and may follow the advice.  The job will consist of pre-recorded music and some speeches from guests at their tables on the main floor.  Two thirds of the room will be used for dining while the other third is for dancing later in the evening. 

My main concerns are speaker placement to help with the reverb and if feedback issues.  I was also thinking of incorporating subs near the dancefloor for the dancing portion. 

Thoughts?
Knowing what type of speakers you have might help.

You gave the dimensions of the room-but what is the intended seating area?  And in relation to the stage.

For all we know the stage is sticking out into the room and you have seating areas that are behind the front of the stage.  That is very common.

DETAILS ARE very important.

Generalizations can-at best-result in very general answers that may not help you at all.
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Jamin Lynch

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 06:59:02 pm »

2 speakers at front with 2 more pairs along the sides progressively delayed to the front pair to maximize intelligibility for the speaking portion of the event, and when the dance starts turn these second two pairs off.

+1

I've done this same set up a few times with good results. In a long room without delayed speakers it's difficult to get the speaking voices to the back of the room without blasting the people in the front. Height is important like Dick said so the delayed speakers aren't right in the faces of people farther back in the room.

I always use a separate post fader auxiliary for the each pair of delayed speakers so you can have volume control over each and give a separate mix. You may not want to turn them off completely when the music starts. Maybe add a little vocals or guitars ect. Gives you more flexibility.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 07:10:31 pm by Jamin Lynch »
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Chris Edwards

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 07:00:22 pm »

Knowing what type of speakers you have might help.

You gave the dimensions of the room-but what is the intended seating area?  And in relation to the stage.

For all we know the stage is sticking out into the room and you have seating areas that are behind the front of the stage.  That is very common.

DETAILS ARE very important.

Generalizations can-at best-result in very general answers that may not help you at all.

Ivan,

Speakers are KV2 EX-12s.

The seating area is 15 round tables of ten guest situated in two thirds of the room.  The stage is located on the end on one of the short sides.  The dancefloor is in front of that.  The stage is not the focus until the dancing starts as all speeches will be in the seating are.  I am on my phone now and will try to post a diagram later.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2014, 07:53:08 pm »

Ivan,

Speakers are KV2 EX-12s.

The seating area is 15 round tables of ten guest situated in two thirds of the room.  The stage is located on the end on one of the short sides.  The dancefloor is in front of that.  The stage is not the focus until the dancing starts as all speeches will be in the seating are.  I am on my phone now and will try to post a diagram later.
Earlier when you said the layout was "short" I assumed the "throw" was short and the speakers were spread out along the long wall for a wide coverage

But now it seems as if the the throw is "long" and narrow coverage.

I also assumed from your post that the dance floor was not in front of the stage-but now it appears as if it might be.

I have seen all sorts of weird setups over the years-and you cannot "assume" that everything is the same in every situation.

HENCE the reason for details.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2014, 08:00:07 pm »

.  The job will consist of pre-recorded music and some speeches from guests at their tables on the main floor. Two thirds of the room will be used for dining while the other third is for dancing later in the evening.

Here's the deal:

Per the highlighted, underlined above, you don't want the seating/dining area covered by delay speakers.  People will, according to the above description, be speaking from the tables.  Putting the speeches from various points in the seating area through speakers delayed from the stage will be off-putting, to say the least.  What the venue is suggesting is broad, even coverage from speakers on both sides of the area.  I'll bet money on that.

So I'd do two zones:

1.  Speakers covering the seating area, no delays, speaking mics flexibly routed so you can lower the mic in any speaker if it's being used directly in front of the speaker (feedback prevention). 

2.  Music for dancing from a system set up at the stage.  You can then use the "speaking" speakers as delays at a very low level in the seating area IF DESIRED by the presenter.

You definitely do NOT want the speeches coming 90 degrees off axis from delay speakers.  Say what you will about "surround sound" from the perimeter of the seating area, but for this application it IS the right way to do it.

DR, grumpy as ever... 
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Chris Edwards

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2014, 11:37:05 pm »

Here's the deal:

Per the highlighted, underlined above, you don't want the seating/dining area covered by delay speakers.  People will, according to the above description, be speaking from the tables.  Putting the speeches from various points in the seating area through speakers delayed from the stage will be off-putting, to say the least.  What the venue is suggesting is broad, even coverage from speakers on both sides of the area.  I'll bet money on that.

So I'd do two zones:

1.  Speakers covering the seating area, no delays, speaking mics flexibly routed so you can lower the mic in any speaker if it's being used directly in front of the speaker (feedback prevention). 

2.  Music for dancing from a system set up at the stage.  You can then use the "speaking" speakers as delays at a very low level in the seating area IF DESIRED by the presenter.

You definitely do NOT want the speeches coming 90 degrees off axis from delay speakers.  Say what you will about "surround sound" from the perimeter of the seating area, but for this application it IS the right way to do it.

DR, grumpy as ever...

The floor plan is attached.  The dancefloor is the blank area in front of the stage labeled DJ.

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2014, 11:45:15 pm »

OK.  Another alternative would be two speakers, one either side of the head table facing down the hall.  Separate  system at the other end for the DJ.

 4 SOS and done.
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Mark Cadwallader

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2014, 12:50:58 am »

The floor plan is attached.  The dancefloor is the blank area in front of the stage labeled DJ.

If I understand the floorplan, there are 13 round tables for the dining guests, but no head table. The venue is suggesting three speakers outboard of the 1-4 tables, and three outboard of 9-13. Do I have the layout right?

In regards tilt adapters, most tilt adapters do not offset the center of gravity/center of balance. That will make your speakers even more unstable at height. If I had a choice, I would use a speaker stand with the widest possible footprint. I have some Ultimate TS99 stands with a wider tripod footprint, which helps stabilty when fully extended (they are taller than the TS90 stands).  FWIW, I have cabinets with dual-hole pole sockets that allow a -10 degree tilt. The K&M expanding mandrel is very nice and very secure - I have sub poles with that feature.  Mark C.
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Rick Powell

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2014, 01:10:35 am »

In regards tilt adapters, most tilt adapters do not offset the center of gravity/center of balance. That will make your speakers even more unstable at height.

These do, at a price.

http://www.bt-12.com/index.php
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Mark Cadwallader

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2014, 01:46:19 am »

These do, at a price.

http://www.bt-12.com/index.php

I've seen links to that unit before; hence my "most tilt adapters" comment. I hadn't bothered to look at the price before, however. Yikes!  I'm glad I don't need three pairs of them ....  Mark C.
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2014, 04:49:12 am »

These tilters are reasonably priced, and have a COG adjustment (that you do manually with a wrench, one time setup.
  Downside is they re fixed at 15% (probably perfect for this venue) and they appear to be discontinued.

Edit: I forgot to say which tilters I was talking bout, its the K&M fixed 15 degree tilters....


You might try a local rental house for tilters.  They make make the difference between "I could hear people speaking' and "wow, I heard everyone so clearly, like there were no speakers being used, we need to invite this guy back next year".




« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 03:42:14 pm by Mark McFarlane »
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2014, 09:40:26 am »

OP,
What type of board will you be using.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2014, 10:57:00 am »

You might try a local rental house for tilters.  They make make the difference between "I could hear people speaking' and "wow, I heard everyone so clearly, like there were no speakers being used, we need to invite this guy back next year".

Not so much about tilters but about "I heard everyone so clearly."

About 10 years ago we were brought in to do a huge "round table" (it was rectangular) discussion for an association of state parks/wildlife managers, including various federal agency representatives (USFW, USFS, BLM, DoI etc).  I designed a distributed system of JF80s on the insides of the rectangle and drove it from 6 matrix sends to do "mix-minus" kind of setup, with an SM58 on a desk stand for every 2 persons (30 inputs, plus lectern and head table, and walk-up Q&A).  Because it was a chaired discussion we could manually mix inputs when participants were recognized by the chairman.  We also fed an overflow area and media distribution.  The prize comment came from the guy with the US Fish & Wildlife Service - "I go to a dozen of these meetings a year, this is the first one where I could hear and understand everything that was said."

That was back in the analog, Olde Skool Dayz.  While the mixing would be different today, I'm not sure I'd change the speaker setup or mix-minus matrix.  These days I also might hire in a conferencing/congress mic system to make setup and cabling easier, and use the conferencing system to do some of my zoning stems.  Dugan auto mixing of the stems would be icing on the cake.

So what's with this big long self-back slap?  To validate Dick Rees' excellent advice.  For Chris, I think the part that needs careful attention is the attendees speaking from their tables.  Hand-held wireless mic getting passed around to persons with a wide variety of mic skills....  Making this part work will be the key to your client's satisfaction.
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Re: Speaker placement suggestions...
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2014, 10:57:00 am »


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