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Author Topic: How accurate is...  (Read 9090 times)

Aaron Weidner

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How accurate is...
« on: August 09, 2014, 01:56:25 am »

Sorry for the length, started off as a question, but I thought I would add some background. I am very passionate about sound; I try to follow Tony Andrews

(owner of Funktion One) teachings even if he sounds a bit crazy at times. Knowing what I do now after the past few years, if I had known about Bassboss, I

would have bought a system from them. I have been thinking about building subwoofers for my system for quite some time. My current subwoofers are two B-52

PA18s (that have magically been given a narrower frequency response since I've owned them) powered by one Crown XTI2002 bridged mono @ 4ohm. For tops,

I have 2 X B-52 PA-315s (that have magically been downgraded in "power handling" by b-52 since I've owned them, 650W down to 400W) with a Crown

XTI1002 bridged mono @ 8 ohm for each (running in stereo). The system sounds pretty good overall, but, IMHO the subwoofers are not worth the money I

spent on them. But, itís what I ended with as my first system. Over the past few years, I now know that 1000W is subjective (to the manufacture) and that

B-52's marketing team must be making some very fat paychecks. First I found out that  that I had 2 different drivers in my subwoofer enclosures, one was a

selenium (that I believe was discontinued more than a couple years ago), and the other was a b-52 branded Celestion (FTR18-4080F). Would there be any

adverse effect from having two different drivers in the same box? I thought I was getting something that could handle "1000W" but they both create audible

distortion before the amp even clips and in theory (manufacturer theory) each sub should be getting "1000W." I soon after found out it was because they are

only 600W aes RMS. I'm just now learning how to use limiters to try and keep them happy. I am now curious as to how I can increase my systems low-end

performance and just recently had time to mess with WIN ISD. I plugged the TS parameters for the factory Celestion driver just to see what it would show me

(not fully understanding how to know what it would show me). Then, just for fun, I plugged in the TS parameters for the Celestion FTR18-4080HDX, which is a

1000W aes RMS driver. A mild upgrade in power handling. The pictures below are what I ended up with using the box parameters shown (interior PA18s

dimensions and port size). Yes, from what I have read it is an audio sin to use a pre-existing box and put different drivers in it. Normally you start with a driver

then the box and then power them if I am incorrect please correct me. I would like to use some Faital Pro 18s to build new subs, but when it comes to designing

a box for them I feel as if I am in over my head, and I have not been able to find box designs online for them. I am more than willing to learn. I do own some of
 
the necessary tools and am willing to buy what I donít have. I am looking for something no bigger than the exterior dimensions of the bassboss SSP218. Is

subwoofer design modeling software reliable? More specifically, how accurate is WIN ISD compaired to other programs? What other programs are their? What

should I expect from the pictures below? Any questions, comments, tips, suggestions, or point me in the right directions would be greatly appreciated, I am a

sponge and only want to learn more   :D. I apologize in advance for peppering this paragraph with questions  :-\.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 12:59:09 pm by Aaron Weidner »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2014, 10:57:46 am »

Sorry for the length, started off as a question but i thought i would add some background. I am very passionate about sound, I try to follow Tony Andrews (owner of Funktion One) even if he sounds a bit crazy at times. so... is subwoofer design modeling software accurate? More specifically, how accurate is WIN ISD? I have been thinking about building my own subwoofers for my system for quite some time. My current subwoofers (2 X B-52 PA18s (that have magically been given a narrower frequency response since I've owned them) powered by 1 X crown 2002 bridged mono @ 4ohm) sound pretty good, but, IMHO are not worth the money i spent. Being so new to PA systems and pro audio its what I ended up starting with. I wanted 3 way tops and decent low frequency extension. I now know that 1000W is subjective (to the manufacture) and that B-52's marketing team must be making some very fat paychecks. For tops i have 2 X B-52 PA-315s (that have magically been downgraded in "power handeling" since I've owned them (650W down to 400W)) with a Crown 1002 bridged mono @ 8 ohm for each (running in stereo, primarily pre-recorded audio, recently electronic music) First i found out that (buying the subs a couple months apart) that i had 2 different drivers, one was a selenium (which i believe was discontinued more than a couple years ago) and the other was a b-52 branded Celestion (FTR18-4080F). Putting them side by side, would their be any negative effect from have two different drivers in the same box? Ive had them for a while now and I'm just learning how to use limiters to tame them. I thought i was getting something that could handle "1000W" but they both create audible distortion before the amp even clips and in theory (manufacturer theory) each sub should be getting "1000W"... imagine that, because they are 600W aes RMS. Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I found this software and plugged the TS parameters for the Celestion driver just to see what it would show me (not knowing how to read what it would show me, but knowing that simulations are probably not always accurate). Then, just for fun, i plugged in the TS parameters for the Celestion FTR18-4080HDX which is a 1000W aes RMS driver. The pictures below is what i ended up with using the box parameters shown (interior PA18s dimensions and port size). I know it is an audio sin to use a pre-exhisting box and put different drivers in it, because from what i read you start with a driver then the box and then power them, if i am incorrect please correct me. Knowing what i do now after the past few years, if i had known about Bassboss, i would have bought a system from them. I would like to use some Faital Pro 18s to build my own subs, but when it comes to designing a box for them i feel as if i am in over my head, and i have not been able to find box designs online for them. I do own the necessary tools and am willing to buy what i need to build boxes if i need to. Something along the dimensions of the bassboss SSP218 would be alright, but no bigger. What should i expect from the pictures below? are they accurate? Any questions, comments, tips, suggestions, or point me in the right directions would be greatly appreciated, i am a sponge and only want to learn more   :D . I apologize in advance for peppering this paragraph with questions  :-\.
Spaces between lines is a VERY NICE THING.  It makes it MUCH easier to read and understand.

To be honest-I could not read through your post-without a lot of "effort".  So I did not.

Any modeling program is based on a number different different assumptions and the accuracy of the data that is put into it.

The honest answer is "Your milage will vary".

And if you expect the end result to measure close to the predictions-then you will be sadly mistaken. 

I have never seen a woofer measured response even come close to being as smooth as that is shown in the models.

Models are used for designers to get certain ideas-not to be real accurate-except in some parts of the model.
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Aaron Weidner

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2014, 01:01:41 pm »

Spaces between lines is a VERY NICE THING.  It makes it MUCH easier to read and understand.

To be honest-I could not read through your post-without a lot of "effort".  So I did not.

Any modeling program is based on a number different different assumptions and the accuracy of the data that is put into it.

The honest answer is "Your milage will vary".

And if you expect the end result to measure close to the predictions-then you will be sadly mistaken. 

I have never seen a woofer measured response even come close to being as smooth as that is shown in the models.

Models are used for designers to get certain ideas-not to be real accurate-except in some parts of the model.

Thank you for the response. I have edited my initial post and hope it is now easier to read. I also thought that it looked a little to good to be true. Is the software used to get a baseline and then trial and error building afterwards? What hardware and software is used to measure frequency responses?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 01:15:40 pm by Aaron Weidner »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2014, 01:15:23 pm »

Thank you for the response. I have edited my initial post and hope it is now easier to read. I also thought that it looked a little to good to be true. Is the software used to get a baseline and then trial and error building afterwards?
The line spaces are supposed to be AT THE END of sentences-NOT in the middle.

It is better-but still does not make logical sense.  Sorry.

All prediction software is a guideline to help you and for you to use YOUR knowledge to come to the final result.
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Barry Singleton

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2014, 01:16:50 pm »

  Ivan I don't think many people type like this. When I post on this and one other site it often bunches all the text together like this and I have to go to preview post, and then go back and seperate it all back out which is a big enough pain that I rarely post on these sites. It's just not worth the time it takes to attempt to make it readable.

Barry.
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Aaron Weidner

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2014, 01:23:52 pm »

I dont understand how its not readable or logical so i shortened it for people who have no need or care for a more personalized version.

I found out that I had 2 different drivers in my subwoofer enclosures.

Would there be any adverse effect from having two different drivers in the same box?

Normally you start with a driver then the box and then power them if I am incorrect please correct me.

Is subwoofer design modeling software reliable?

More specifically, how accurate is WIN ISD compaired to other programs?

What other programs are their?

What should I expect from the pictures shown?

Any questions, comments, tips, suggestions, or point me in the right directions would be greatly appreciated, I am a
sponge and only want to learn more.
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2014, 11:14:28 pm »

Quote from: Aaron Weidner

I found out that I had 2 different drivers in my subwoofer enclosures.

Would there be any adverse effect from having two different drivers in the same box?
Two different drivers in a single dual driver enclosure would be bad, but while having two different drivers in separate enclosures isn't ideal from a system perspective it's not necessarilly the end of the world if those drivers offer similar performance. It is not uncommon for manufacturers to change drivers in enclosures that have been in production for some time, sometimes it is done to increase performance but it is also done if the previous driver was discontinued or if proved to be unreliable.

Quote from: Aaron Weidner
Normally you start with a driver then the box and then power them if I am incorrect please correct me.
No,, the right way is to design a box that delivers the performance you want and then find a driver that works in it.

Quote from: Aaron Weidner
Is subwoofer design modeling software reliable?

More specifically, how accurate is WIN ISD compaired to other programs?
In he big scheme of things a reflex enclosure is a pretty simple speaker so yes you can trust that the software isn't totally lying to you, but it may not be telling you he whole story either. This software assumes the TS specs for the driver are accurate and that is usually the case for products from major manufacturers, but in most cases these are small signal specs and system(driver and box) performance can vary a little or a lot at higher drive levels. To that end you should download and use the Pro version(WinISD Pro) because it also simulates driver excursion, port air velocity, and the effects of low and high pass filters... all of which become important at higher drive levels and will affect your design and how much power it will handle.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 11:23:01 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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Aaron Weidner

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2014, 11:43:51 pm »

Two different drivers in a single dual driver enclosure would be bad, but while having two different drivers in separate enclosures isn't ideal from a system perspective it's not necessarilly the end of the world if those drivers offer similar performance.
No,, the right way is to design a box that delivers the performance you want and then find a driver that works in it.
In he big scheme of things a reflex enclosure is a pretty simple speaker so yes you can trust that the software isn't totally lying to you. The software assumes the TS specs for the driver are accurate and that is usually the case for products from major manufacturers, but in most cases these are small signal specs and system(driver and box) performance can vary a little or a lot at higher drive levels. To that end you should download and use the Pro version(WinISD Pro) because it also simulates driver excursion, port air velocity, and the effects of low and high pass filters... all of which become important at higher drive levels.

Thank you very much!! I didn't realize i did not put pro. I'm using WinISD Pro Alpha currently. Im still trying to understand everything it is showing me with the different graphs. Im having some confusion when it comes to max power and cone excursion with my current boxes. The box construction is limiting me on driver selection due to cutout and mounting dimensions. I will post some of the other graphs and my questions tomorrow if that is alright? Im out of time tonight.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2014, 12:20:30 pm »

Thank you very much!! I didn't realize i did not put pro. I'm using WinISD Pro Alpha currently. Im still trying to understand everything it is showing me with the different graphs. Im having some confusion when it comes to max power and cone excursion with my current boxes. The box construction is limiting me on driver selection due to cutout and mounting dimensions. I will post some of the other graphs and my questions tomorrow if that is alright? Im out of time tonight.
The max power is the point at which the coil "burns".

The max excursion is the point at which the cone/suspension etc will be damaged.

You can easily have one without the other-depending on the freq and the tuning of the cabinet.

There are no "one size fits all" answers.
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Aaron Weidner

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2014, 01:03:39 pm »

The max power is the point at which the coil "burns".

The max excursion is the point at which the cone/suspension etc will be damaged.

You can easily have one without the other-depending on the freq and the tuning of the cabinet.

There are no "one size fits all" answers.

Ah ok, that makes sense.

I thought that max power was showing how much power the speaker can handle at a given frequency without exceeding xmax.

So, when looking at max excursion, the line being drawn is the drivers excursions at those frequencies?

The objective is to try and keep that line from passing the drivers xmax?

Is the excursion graph equal in its increments or is it calculated some other way?

I ask because even the driver that comes with the box is over 8mm xmax in its operating frequency.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2014, 01:51:21 pm »

Ah ok, that makes sense.

I thought that max power was showing how much power the speaker can handle at a given frequency without exceeding xmax.

So, when looking at max excursion, the line being drawn is the drivers excursions at those frequencies?

The objective is to try and keep that line from passing the drivers xmax?

Is the excursion graph equal in its increments or is it calculated some other way?

I ask because even the driver that comes with the box is over 8mm xmax in its operating frequency.
The excursion of a loudspeaker will vary quite a bit depending on the freq-even if the same VOLTAGE is applied.

Of course the impedance varies with freq-so even with the same voltage applied-then the power will vary with freq.

XMAX can actually mean different things.  X lim or X dam is the point at which failure will occur.

The XMAX is considered to the maximum excursion at which some point the manufacturer considers to be "non linear".  But the driver can move more than that if pushed harder-but still not be damaged.  But the sound quality will suffer.
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2014, 10:41:53 am »

The excursion of a loudspeaker will vary quite a bit depending on the freq-even if the same VOLTAGE is applied.

And that is a key point, amplifiers are constant voltage devices so the frequency that produces xmax in the driver first represents the voltage limit for all frequencies, because it would take some very special feedback processing to protect the driver at higher drive voltages. So in other words, when you look at the max power graph in WinISD the lowest point on that graph should be considered the maximum average drive level you can safely push to the speaker.
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Art Welter

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2014, 03:57:39 pm »

1)So, when looking at max excursion, the line being drawn is the drivers excursions at those frequencies?
2)The objective is to try and keep that line from passing the drivers xmax?
3)Is the excursion graph equal in its increments or is it calculated some other way?
Aaron,

Looking at the models of the same driver in different size enclosures with different Fb (tuning frequency) will help you to understand the differences:

http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Definimax_4018LF_cab.pdf

You will notice the large boxes go lower with less power, but will also hit Xmax at lower power. Also note the large impedance rises each side of Fb, where cone displacement is at minima. Last year I mentioned to you that the excursion can easily be seen (and measured) by eye with a white dot on the cone. I failed to answer your question of what to use for the dot, but a silver Sharpie pen, "Liquid Paper", "Wite-Out", or any of a variety of paint pens or paint using a small brush all work well.

When you actually measure, you will notice that due to the rising impedance and suspension stiffness, most "PA" type drivers do not actually have as much increase in excursion below Fb as predicted, though distortion below Fb still will skyrocket.

1) "Max Excursion" would be Xlim, or Xmech, often as much as double Xmax, which is linear excursion. Above Xmax, simulations are fairly useless, since they assume a linear excursion far past reality.
2) In general there is no reason to simulate excursion above Xmax, as it won't represent what actually happens with excursion.
3) Excursion graph increments are notated either in mm or fractions of an inch in equal increments.

Art
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Aaron Weidner

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2014, 10:27:26 am »

Aaron,

Looking at the models of the same driver in different size enclosures with different Fb (tuning frequency) will help you to understand the differences:

http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Definimax_4018LF_cab.pdf

You will notice the large boxes go lower with less power, but will also hit Xmax at lower power. Also note the large impedance rises each side of Fb, where cone displacement is at minima. Last year I mentioned to you that the excursion can easily be seen (and measured) by eye with a white dot on the cone. I failed to answer your question of what to use for the dot, but a silver Sharpie pen, "Liquid Paper", "Wite-Out", or any of a variety of paint pens or paint using a small brush all work well.

When you actually measure, you will notice that due to the rising impedance and suspension stiffness, most "PA" type drivers do not actually have as much increase in excursion below Fb as predicted, though distortion below Fb still will skyrocket.

1) "Max Excursion" would be Xlim, or Xmech, often as much as double Xmax, which is linear excursion. Above Xmax, simulations are fairly useless, since they assume a linear excursion far past reality.
2) In general there is no reason to simulate excursion above Xmax, as it won't represent what actually happens with excursion.
3) Excursion graph increments are notated either in mm or fractions of an inch in equal increments.

Art

Thank you for the information guys.

Art, i just now remembered you saying that.

Ill have to give it a try some time this week just to see what it says.

Thank you all for the help, it is much clearer now. Sorry for my absence, i decided to take paul's advice and did some forum surfing.

I have decided to build 2 othorns over 2 dual 18 inch designs.

My thoughts are:

2 dual 18 inch cabs will take up more space in the trailer.

The othorns are more efficient due to their design and will be comparable in performance.

The othorns will offer less distortion.

the othorns will get me more sound for the power applied over a bass reflex dual 18.

Cost to build is going to be close to the same.

Either way i build, it will blow my current subwoofers out of the water.

If i need to be corrected please feel free. Of course any and all information is helpful.

Has anybody here had experience with the othorn?

I also thought of this last night. I see online that people commonly say "delay horn loaded subs".

If the subs are on line or in line with the mains, shouldn't it be the mains that are delayed due to the length of the horn?

Thanks :-)
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2014, 01:01:04 pm »


I also thought of this last night. I see online that people commonly say "delay horn loaded subs".

If the subs are on line or in line with the mains, shouldn't it be the mains that are delayed due to the length of the horn?

Thanks :-)
You are correct.  Except often the delay is more than the physical path length of the horn-it should also address it should also address the phase shift (delay) associated with the low pass filter on the subs.
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Aaron Weidner

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2014, 03:15:45 pm »

You are correct.  Except often the delay is more than the physical path length of the horn-it should also address it should also address the phase shift (delay) associated with the low pass filter on the subs.

Oh my.. didn't know about that. I normally cross over around 80hz, would there be a way of hearing that somethings wrong? Lack of bass, low mid ect... Its a mobile rig and i usually only get at most an hour to set everything up. Is there a way to rough it in? Would something that technical would require actual classes and gear to fix?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2014, 05:11:51 pm »

Oh my.. didn't know about that. I normally cross over around 80hz, would there be a way of hearing that somethings wrong? Lack of bass, low mid ect... Its a mobile rig and i usually only get at most an hour to set everything up. Is there a way to rough it in? Would something that technical would require actual classes and gear to fix?
The typical answer is "it depends" and in this case it depends on the particular loudspeakers in use (subs and tops).

The only way to properly see what is going on with the phase is with a modern measurement system that will show phase.  An RTA will not.

Other than that it is a guess-which could be right at one freq and wrong at others.
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Aaron Weidner

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2014, 06:37:54 pm »

The typical answer is "it depends" and in this case it depends on the particular loudspeakers in use (subs and tops).

The only way to properly see what is going on with the phase is with a modern measurement system that will show phase.  An RTA will not.

Other than that it is a guess-which could be right at one freq and wrong at others.

What are some modern measurement systems?

I would more than likely never be able to afford one, but it would be nice to know.

Does it boil down to, theres not much i can do about it and set it with my best guess?

Would getting it close or at least setting the delay for the horn be better than not doing anything at all?

almost makes me want to go back to a bass reflex subwoofer, or does it not matter what type of subwoofer is used?
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Art Welter

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2014, 07:12:43 pm »

1)Oh my.. didn't know about that.
2)I normally cross over around 80hz, would there be a way of hearing that somethings wrong?  3)Is there a way to rough it in? Does it boil down to, theres not much i can do about it and set it with my best guess?
4)Would something that technical would require actual classes and gear to fix?
5)What are some modern measurement systems?
6)Would getting it close or at least setting the delay for the horn be better than not doing anything at all?
7)Almost makes me want to go back to a bass reflex subwoofer, or does it not matter what type of subwoofer is used?
1) You would have, had you remembered my response to your question two days ago  ::).
2) Improper time/phase alignment results in a lack of coherency in the crossover region, normally a lack in "punch".
3)Check out #6 here:
 http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,84305.0.html
4) If you could retain the information, classes would help.
5) Smaart, Systune, Tef and many others. All the response curves you have seen me post use Smaart.
6) Yes, getting in the ballpark is better than being stuck in traffic  ;).
7) Every system benefits from alignment, but BR don't require as much top delay as a long TH or FLH.

Once you set the alignment, as long as the top speakers are stacked above the subs, the alignment won't change, though proximity to boundaries (walls, floor, ceiling) may require EQ changes which can be done "to taste".

Art
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 07:17:58 pm by Art Welter »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2014, 07:18:08 pm »

What are some modern measurement systems?

I would more than likely never be able to afford one, but it would be nice to know.

Does it boil down to, theres not much i can do about it and set it with my best guess?

Would getting it close or at least setting the delay for the horn be better than not doing anything at all?

almost makes me want to go back to a bass reflex subwoofer, or does it not matter what type of subwoofer is used?
Even bass reflex cabinets generally need the full range cabinets to be delayed.  It is just the time that is different.

Horn subs tend to have less distortion-so there is not as much interference above the crossover point with the full range cabinets.

Some "Modern measurement systems" include (but not limited to)  Smaart-Systune-Easra-TEF and more.

There are several aspects to cost.  Obviously is the program.  You will also need an interface to get the signals in and out of the computer-a measurement mic.

But the most important aspect is the KNOWLEDGE/SKILL to use it.

Knowing what you can and can't fix and what is causing it is the biggest thing that most people stumble on.  Classes are offered (again at a cost) that help.

But just attending a class will not make you an expert (non of us are).  In fact most people have more questions when they come than when they went in.
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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2014, 07:47:44 pm »

Even bass reflex cabinets generally need the full range cabinets to be delayed.  It is just the time that is different.

Horn subs tend to have less distortion-so there is not as much interference above the crossover point with the full range cabinets.

Some "Modern measurement systems" include (but not limited to)  Smaart-Systune-Easra-TEF and more.

There are several aspects to cost.  Obviously is the program.  You will also need an interface to get the signals in and out of the computer-a measurement mic.

But the most important aspect is the KNOWLEDGE/SKILL to use it.

Knowing what you can and can't fix and what is causing it is the biggest thing that most people stumble on.  Classes are offered (again at a cost) that help.

But just attending a class will not make you an expert (non of us are).  In fact most people have more questions when they come than when they went in.

ahh i seee. Like they say, knowledge is power. Im glad the internet, this and a few other forums are around. Ill have to see about taking a class or two if i can find any in my area. Im in the tri cities in michigan, saginaw, midland, bay city. Thank you for the information, all of it. Hopefully this thread will help any other new comers so they don't have to bug you guys so much. :-)
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2014, 08:35:38 pm »

ahh i seee. Like they say, knowledge is power. Im glad the internet, this and a few other forums are around. Ill have to see about taking a class or two if i can find any in my area. Im in the tri cities in michigan, saginaw, midland, bay city. Thank you for the information, all of it. Hopefully this thread will help any other new comers so they don't have to bug you guys so much. :-)
There are 2 parts to the "measurement situation".

The easiest is what I call "knobology".  That is learning how each program works and how to view or do certain things.  They all do and perform pretty much the same-but how they look and operate varies greatly.

The second and hardest part is knowing basic measurement-what to look for-when you see something odd what other tests and so forth to run.

Any "measurement guy" can quickly learn a measurement program.  But simply knowing what the button do in a program does not even begin to give you an understanding to what you are looking at.

Before taking classes I HIGHLY suggest getting the program (I use Smaart and TEF mostly and do not suggest TEF for your situation), playing around with it on your own,  read and view various tutorials on line,  read the manufacturers forums/questions etc.

THEN attend a class.  THe more you know going into it, the more you will get out of it.

If you go in "cold" you will be quickly overwhelmed and won't get a lot out of it.

But NOTHING replaces actually MEASURING and in different conditions/situation/different products and so forth.

What may work well in one situation does not work at all in another.  You have to figure out WHY it is not working and what you can do to get it to work.  Or the compromises you have to make.

The more you learn-the better understanding you will have about how this "audio stuff" works (and doesn't)
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Aaron Weidner

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Re: How accurate is...
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2014, 09:53:53 pm »

There are 2 parts to the "measurement situation".

The easiest is what I call "knobology".  That is learning how each program works and how to view or do certain things.  They all do and perform pretty much the same-but how they look and operate varies greatly.

The second and hardest part is knowing basic measurement-what to look for-when you see something odd what other tests and so forth to run.

Any "measurement guy" can quickly learn a measurement program.  But simply knowing what the button do in a program does not even begin to give you an understanding to what you are looking at.

Before taking classes I HIGHLY suggest getting the program (I use Smaart and TEF mostly and do not suggest TEF for your situation), playing around with it on your own,  read and view various tutorials on line,  read the manufacturers forums/questions etc.

THEN attend a class.  THe more you know going into it, the more you will get out of it.

If you go in "cold" you will be quickly overwhelmed and won't get a lot out of it.

But NOTHING replaces actually MEASURING and in different conditions/situation/different products and so forth.

What may work well in one situation does not work at all in another.  You have to figure out WHY it is not working and what you can do to get it to work.  Or the compromises you have to make.

The more you learn-the better understanding you will have about how this "audio stuff" works (and doesn't)

I understand what your saying. I have an associates in programming, and i definitely wish i would have dabbled in it before i started taking my classes. Within the next few years ill probably have the best sounding mobile sound system in the area.
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Re: How accurate is...
¬ę Reply #22 on: August 13, 2014, 09:53:53 pm ¬Ľ


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