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Author Topic: AC-DC Power  (Read 5766 times)

Frank DeWitt

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AC-DC Power
« on: July 31, 2014, 04:06:35 pm »

Step one

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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: AC-DC Power
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2014, 05:07:34 pm »

As far as homes being wired with DC, not going to happen, even off grid homes are usually wired only with 120v AC now since conversion efficiency has risen to the point where low voltage DC makes no economic sense.

Art

Perhaps-but LED lighting has not been around long enough to impact thinking.  And as Frank points out the USB supply s becoming increasingly common.  Efficiency maybe, but what about economics?  It makes no sense to wire a home with a minimum circuit size of 15 amps when I can light an average floor of a home with 1 to 2 amps.  If the NEC doesn't change, it would be cheaper to wire a home with low voltage wire and buy one power supply vs one for each lamp-maybe 15 or 20?  Might make an electrical inspector cross eyed the first time, but thats OK.
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Steve Swaffer

Art Welter

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Re: AC-DC Power
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2014, 04:56:54 pm »

Efficiency maybe, but what about economics?  It makes no sense to wire a home with a minimum circuit size of 15 amps when I can light an average floor of a home with 1 to 2 amps.  If the NEC doesn't change, it would be cheaper to wire a home with low voltage wire and buy one power supply vs one for each lamp-maybe 15 or 20? 
It makes no economic sense to double the wiring in a house, and 12 volt wiring requires large conductors to prevent voltage drop even with relatively low amperage draw.
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: AC-DC Power
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2014, 05:35:00 pm »

Step two.  POE   Power over Ethernet

Step three  http://ap.viewsonic.com/in/products/digital-signage/EP1031R.php

Step Four http://www.altinex.com/index.php?q=MUSE

120 VAC 150 watts over CAT5  (sort of)

The Muse products allow users to transmit video, display power, and IR signals up to 300ft (90m) over a single unshielded CAT-6 cable. The Muse is powerful enough to power a 150 watt LCD display up to 300 ft away from a signal and power source. The Muse is fully compliant with HDMI and HDCP standards
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Art Welter

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Re: AC-DC Power
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 06:43:28 pm »

Step two.  POE   Power over Ethernet
Step three 
Step Four
120 VAC 150 watts over CAT5  (sort of)
Frank,

Not following what steps 1-4 have to do with the "Best gear to produce a lot of sound without shore power", but using 22 AWG wire to transmit 120 volt power limits the 150 watt to about 100 feet for a 4% drop.

Art
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: AC-DC Power
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 11:04:48 pm »

Debating this here is OT-the market will ultimately settle the debate-personally I think there will be a paradigm shift in the next few years, but I could be very wrong-there are a lot of big corporations with a vested interest in the status quo.

Usually when I wire a home, I do lighting separate anyway.  It takes a lot of wire for switch legs, so I prefer to use 14 awg and 15 amp circuits-but I refuse to use 15 amp receptacle circuits.  Perhaps use LV and save the cost of an arc fault breaker?  LED lighting is available now using addressable switching-120 VAC power to light then a CAT 5 to control it.  This lends itself to automation and occupancy sensing-but the obvious next step is to POE or a similar perhaps for the purpose protocol.  Run an 18 or 16 awg home run to each light, maybe pick up a switch location or several on the home run.  Program everything to work as desired when done-and change at will with a few keystrokes when  (not if) the customer changes their mind.  How many people had cell phones 20 years ago?

I really think the only reason to keep the 120 VAC is the installed base and convenience-and power hungry stuff like AC and appliances.  If we start to see more off the grid solar I would think more LV devices would be available.  For an off the grid portable setup, maximum efficiency would be very important-and a double hit by any loss in an inverter followed by some loss in a PS just creates heat that you have to run a fan to get rid off.

In the short term, it sounds like efficient speakers is the biggest area to gain in right now.
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Steve Swaffer

Frank DeWitt

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Re: AC-DC Power
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2014, 11:20:30 pm »

Frank,
, but using 22 AWG wire to transmit 120 volt power limits the 150 watt to about 100 feet for a 4% drop.

Art

They use DC and convert it to 120 VAC at the receiving end.  They run the DC using all the conductors in the CAT6 not just a pair.  I was wrong, it is CAT6 not 5,  8  #23 AWG  It is quite clever, safe, and it works.  It is unrelated to the OP but related to the rabbit trail. 
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Mike Sokol

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Re: AC-DC Power
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2014, 12:16:32 pm »

Not following what steps 1-4 have to do with the "Best gear to produce a lot of sound without shore power"

I agree, so I've split the topic. AC-DC power is certainly worthy of discussion on this forum, but OT to the original thread about running a PA system "OTG" without house power or a big generator.
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Mike Sokol
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: AC-DC Power
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2014, 11:18:50 pm »

It makes no economic sense to double the wiring in a house, and 12 volt wiring requires large conductors to prevent voltage drop even with relatively low amperage draw.

I would not argue for 12 vdc either.  24 VDC would be more likely to become the standard-it is already the most universal voltage for industrial machine controls, found on machines made in the US, Britain, EU, China,Japan and Korea.  The AC voltages from these areas are all over the map-100, 110, 120, 200, 220, 230 and 240 are all used.

If other voltages are required, DC to DC converters are readily available, essentially switched mode powers supplies without the input rectifier section.   One reason AC distribution has been so common was the best way to change voltages was a transformer-not so much anymore.  The only real question is does it make sense to switch from AC to DC?

Other than the kitchen, major appliances and hair appliances how many rooms in a home really need something that couldn't be done with a power limited 24 VDC circuit?  What about the office?
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Steve Swaffer

Scott Holtzman

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Re: AC-DC Power
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2014, 01:30:14 am »

I would not argue for 12 vdc either.  24 VDC would be more likely to become the standard-it is already the most universal voltage for industrial machine controls, found on machines made in the US, Britain, EU, China,Japan and Korea.  The AC voltages from these areas are all over the map-100, 110, 120, 200, 220, 230 and 240 are all used.

If other voltages are required, DC to DC converters are readily available, essentially switched mode powers supplies without the input rectifier section.   One reason AC distribution has been so common was the best way to change voltages was a transformer-not so much anymore.  The only real question is does it make sense to switch from AC to DC?

Other than the kitchen, major appliances and hair appliances how many rooms in a home really need something that couldn't be done with a power limited 24 VDC circuit?  What about the office?

We already have PoE standards now up to 30W with 802.3at and UPoE near or recently ratified.  Let's rally behind the standards UPoE is 60W that should be sufficient for lighting, PC's smaller LCD panels.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Re: AC-DC Power
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2014, 01:30:14 am »


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