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Author Topic: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary  (Read 6640 times)

Nate Lewis

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2014, 01:07:31 pm »

DAS are not in the same quality category as Nexo and I would avoid them.

Nexo may be a good fit. Others I would look to are: Danley Sound Labs, Yamaha Commercial series, Fulcrum Acoustic and d&b Audiotechnik. There are others, but these would provide plenty of options and probably fit your budget.

You have not mentioned subwoofers. While it would seem (to me ) that these would be necessary given the style of music you appear to worship with, finding a good place for them (or maybe only one would be required) is another challenge. Placement is pretty critical but for different reasons than those which occur in placement of the fullrange loudspeakers.

Perhaps the strongest suggestion/warning I can give you is that it matters little what system you go with if you do not have a experienced measurement & optimization specialist on board. The loudspeakers will simply not perform as well as they are designed to without this. Part of this is making sure you have an appropriate DSP device and appropriate power amplifiers in the system.

HTH

We are currently using two 18" JBL subs. One is far left and the other far right against the wall right in front of the platform. You can see the JBL tag in the pic taken from the corner. I am not responsible for the install of the current system. This placements seems to work well. I have not experimented with other placements due to aesthetics. We will need a sub or subs for our style of music.

We tend to run loud and hard. Currently we sometimes hit up to 95db for our worship service with an average around 90db. Our goal is always 88 to 90 db.

Tom do you have a contact for a measurement & optimization specialist I could contact in our area. Most of the audio contracters around here either just install what they think will work or have a "guy" they call. Most are stuck to one or two brands which can be good and bad. In this case this is a DAS guy.
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Tom Young

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2014, 02:24:56 pm »

Tom do you have a contact for a measurement & optimization specialist I could contact in our area. Most of the audio contracters around here either just install what they think will work or have a "guy" they call. Most are stuck to one or two brands which can be good and bad. In this case this is a DAS guy.

I did not see any reference to where you are located. Let me know and I will try to help.
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
203-888-6217

Nate Lewis

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2014, 03:35:18 pm »

I did not see any reference to where you are located. Let me know and I will try to help.

Sorry. We are in central Mississippi.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2014, 07:03:53 pm »

Most of the audio contracters around here either just install what they think will work or have a "guy" they call. Most are stuck to one or two brands which can be good and bad. In this case this is a DAS guy.
I thought YOU were doing the install?
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Nate Lewis

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2014, 08:02:30 pm »

I thought YOU were doing the install?

I plan to do the install. That is not to say I will not bring in the help of someone with more equipment and experience to tell me the best way to position and where to install to get the best out of what we have. Like I said earlier we are in the very begging stages and I was just looking for some quick recommends of something I may not have seen before as ideas. Paying some one $100 an hour for back work that I can do is different than paying an expert for a small amount of time to analyze the room.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2014, 08:48:01 pm »

I plan to do the install. That is not to say I will not bring in the help of someone with more equipment and experience to tell me the best way to position and where to install to get the best out of what we have. Like I said earlier we are in the very begging stages and I was just looking for some quick recommends of something I may not have seen before as ideas. Paying some one $100 an hour for back work that I can do is different than paying an expert for a small amount of time to analyze the room.
The modeling program should tell you where to position and aim the loudspeakers.  The model shows the results of the choice of position and loudspeaker.  But then you have already looked into that-so should have the answers already.

I would not consider any product unless you have ALSO checked into where they could be placed.  it might be the proper location would require LOTS of extra money.

We did a job a few years ago in which the location for the system I wanted to install could be hung off of the main structure steel.  However the consultant on the job wanted to use a different solution-and it cost the Church over $50,000 JUST to have steel installed to hang the cluster where he wanted it.

Things like that need to be planned on.

As for me-I would not want to be involved in a project in which products other than what I recommend were used-and then the results would be my responsibility.  In the previous example the consultant was responsible-and the results were not good-but that fell on him-not us.

Analyzing the room is pretty much a completely different issue than doing system alignment.  Different skill sets/different knowledge basis/different solutions.

What are the problems you are having with the room?

So does the acoustic treatment needed for the room going to come out of the $15K budget? Or is there a separate budget for that?
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Tom Young

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2014, 09:18:47 pm »

Paying some one $100 an hour for back work that I can do is different than paying an expert for a small amount of time to analyze the room.

Not to nitpick, but I specifically meant (and within the context of my post, "said") you need to have the sound system measured and optimized. This will certainly include the room and acoustics, but should not be misrepresented as "analyze the room".

You should also expect to pay "good money" and partly because it won't be a small amount of time, if it is done correctly. Measuring and optimizing the system is the first step. Then you bring in the players and clergy and sound check. The remaining stage monitors you are using should be measured and optimized. This will help you to achieve lower levels. Difficult microphones (lav's and earworn wireless, podium) should be analyzed while the users are wearing them and speaking through them. Precision EQ, based on high-resolution measurement, is usually required on these. I, more often than not, also attend 1-3 services so that the presence of the congregation (their effects on acoustics and how the musos and clergy behave with them present) can be accounted for.

The specialist will have thousands of dollars worth of gear and software plus the training they received and years of practice. So the tab may end up costing a few thousand dollars. But this is such a vital step and will effect so much how the tens of thousand of dollars of gear works, it is money very well spent.
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2014, 07:35:02 am »

Not to nitpick, but I specifically meant (and within the context of my post, "said") you need to have the sound system measured and optimized. This will certainly include the room and acoustics, but should not be misrepresented as "analyze the room".

You should also expect to pay "good money" and partly because it won't be a small amount of time, if it is done correctly. Measuring and optimizing the system is the first step. Then you bring in the players and clergy and sound check. The remaining stage monitors you are using should be measured and optimized. This will help you to achieve lower levels. Difficult microphones (lav's and earworn wireless, podium) should be analyzed while the users are wearing them and speaking through them. Precision EQ, based on high-resolution measurement, is usually required on these. I, more often than not, also attend 1-3 services so that the presence of the congregation (their effects on acoustics and how the musos and clergy behave with them present) can be accounted for.

The specialist will have thousands of dollars worth of gear and software plus the training they received and years of practice. So the tab may end up costing a few thousand dollars. But this is such a vital step and will effect so much how the tens of thousand of dollars of gear works, it is money very well spent.
Do you mean I can't just put the RTA in AUTO mode and "eq the room" in 5 minutes????????????????

The manual say I can-----------------------  ;)

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Ivan Beaver
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2014, 07:44:54 am »

I plan to do the install. That is not to say I will not bring in the help of someone with more equipment and experience to tell me the best way to position and where to install to get the best out of what we have. Like I said earlier we are in the very begging stages and I was just looking for some quick recommends of something I may not have seen before as ideas. Paying some one $100 an hour for back work that I can do is different than paying an expert for a small amount of time to analyze the room.
When I was in the install business (installed probably 500 systems or so), we would NEVER let the buyer/owner etc do or help with the install.

There is simply to much risk of liability-on different levels- there.

The obvious being physical (building and bodily).

But what happens and who is responsible when something stops working?  Is the failure due to a bad solder connection that the volunteer did?  Or the crimp connection that the pro did?

What if it is a piece of gear?  Who is going to figure that out and warranty that?

Is the "bad sound" the fault of the person who did the alignment (whith what he was given to work with) or the result of a bad choice of gear by the owner?

It is FAR better to have ONE COMPANY responsible for the entire system-that way the liability falls on them.  When you start to "mix it up" it gets real confusing and there is lots of "finger pointing".

We had a case recently in which one company supplied the mixer and another company supplied the DSP/amp/speaker system.

The system stopped working-os "OBVIOUSLY" it must be the fault of the seakers-because there  is no sound coming out-right???????

Long story short-the output of the console died-but yet the company that did the speaker install was the one who sent people to figure out the problem and prove it was not their fault.

Yes the console got fixed by the other companies warrant-but the company that did the speaker install (who sent manpower-knowledge etc to the jobsite) did not get paid for their effort/time to figure out it was somebodies elses problem.

That is exactly the type of thing where it get "confusing".

Sorry-but that is the REALITY of what goes on in this business.

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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Cailen Waddell

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2014, 08:39:55 am »

I think it all depends on circumstances and skill levels.  I would never split the wiring and termination out from the rest of an installed system for example, I would take the entire installed system, pulled wiring, dsp, amps, speakers, and treat it as a unit, with a console, mics, wireless, stands, monitor wedges, playback as being fixtures, furniture, and equipment not part of the installed system.  Sometimes this makes sense.  However, if my system stops working, I can troubleshoot and isolate the problem before calling the contractor IF we are within the warranty period.  Not everyone has staff available who can do that.  Your mileage may vary.
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