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Author Topic: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass  (Read 35761 times)

g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2014, 03:53:00 PM »

In my experience when the Hondas are set on eco throttle that some lag happens when demand goes up quickly, like a loud mastered track hits with extra low end demands or varying dynamic range of live music. Am I wrong?

You are not wrong.  Eco throttle is OK for static loads, but dynamic loads like PA should be run at "full"throttle.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass
« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2014, 04:07:22 PM »

You are not wrong.  Eco throttle is OK for static loads, but dynamic loads like PA should be run at "full"throttle.

I think that should read "full throttle, baby"....  ;D

kel mcguire

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Re: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2014, 07:37:29 PM »

You are not wrong.  Eco throttle is OK for static loads, but dynamic loads like PA should be run at "full"throttle.

ok, thanks. That's sort of why I suggested it as a possible problem to the OP's sagging Mackie's performance. Seems obvious but I've made that mistake a couple times on EU2000 & 3000
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass
« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2014, 10:06:15 PM »


Our Transformer/Distros can also eliminate "Line-Loss" from long cable runs without resorting to larger more expensive gauge wire. A common problem with portable generators, even the super quiet Honda Inverter generators, is that by the time you move them far enough off set that you don't hear them, you have significant "Line Loss" (often referred to as "Voltage Drop") from the long cable run back to set (if you use regular cable.) To the problem of line loss, as we saw in the Voltage Characteristic Curve of the generator above you have the added problem that as you add load, the voltage drops on the generators. For this reason we tap our  Transformer/Distros so that you can boost the voltage their secondaries in 5% (6v) increments. This feature enables you to operate the generator at a distance without suffering from voltage drop.

This Rap Video is also a good example of the benefit to being able to boost line voltage with our Transformer/Distro. Even though the generator was 300 ft away, the boost capacity of our Transformer/Distro assured that line level on set did not drop too low. By comparison, had we run 300' of standard 14 Awg electrical cord to set we would have experienced severe line loss.


I certainly agree that Guy's distro/transformer has a place and can be a useful tool-but every tool has its place.  If a load operates in a satisfactory manner on a traditional on a traditional 120/240 volt distro, the cost for a 4 wire feeder vs a 3 wire feeder is the only savings by using the transformer distro.  Obviously, if triplen/harmonic currents exist in sufficient magnitude to create problems the equation changes.

With all due respect the transformer distro cannot eliminate "line loss"-unless it also repeals the second law of thermodynamics.  A 5% voltage sag on the secondary side = a 5% voltage sag on the primary side that voltage multiplied by the current draw equals the power loss in the cable.  If you have to turn up two taps-10%-then 10% of the energy being generated is being dissipated in the cable and is no longer available for the load, thus a 7500 watt generator becomes a 6750 watt generator.  Of course, this feature is useful in voltage sensitive equipment, but it cannot solve a problem where the issue not enough energy at the end of the feeder.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2014, 10:54:04 PM »

One thing I would like to see is to simply do an experiment that eliminates the 200 ft. distro run. By simply parking the generator in the middle of the action plugging the powered speakers into the shortest run of distro possible, the OP would know if the distro had anything to do with this. If the bass DOESN'T sag on heavy bass, then you know it's the 200' distro causing the problem. If it DOES sag, then it's likely the generator's inability to supply peak currents during heavy bass.

While it may not be practical for this sort of remote gig, the next step would be to power the systems from A) a really big rental generator as an experiment, or B) plug it into solid house power that you know won't dip. In those cases if the volume still seems to sag on bass, then there's some sort of internal limiting happening internally to the speakers.

I'm a big experiment guy, and while I really like thinking about and discussing theory, at some point you need to run a few real-world experiments and gather some empirical data. That's the only way to know if you're on target with your hypothesis or simply blowing smoke.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 10:56:20 PM by Mike Sokol »
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2014, 11:17:28 PM »

One thing I would like to see is to simply do an experiment that eliminates the 200 ft. distro run. By simply parking the generator in the middle of the action plugging the powered speakers into the shortest run of distro possible, the OP would know if the distro had anything to do with this. If the bass DOESN'T sag on heavy bass, then you know it's the 200' distro causing the problem. If it DOES sag, then it's likely the generator's inability to supply peak currents during heavy bass.

While it may not be practical for this sort of remote gig, the next step would be to power the systems from A) a really big rental generator as an experiment, or B) plug it into solid house power that you know won't dip. In those cases if the volume still seems to sag on bass, then there's some sort of internal limiting happening internally to the speakers.

I'm a big experiment guy, and while I really like thinking about and discussing theory, at some point you need to run a few real-world experiments and gather some empirical data. That's the only way to know if you're on target with your hypothesis or simply blowing smoke.

Beware the "sag".

This is the OP's subjective assessment of what's happening and is only one possibility.  Th only hard info we have is regarding the gear itself.  And I, for one, take all this with a rather large grain of saly given the deployment, funky "distro" and wiring as well as the expectations of getting any serious sound out of the woefully inadequate speakers.

I would lay odds that a first-hand evaluation would reveal a slew of issues from inferior gear, inept operation, unrealistic expectations and such as well as myriad unmentioned possibilities.  It is highly suspect to focus attention on the generator alone when SO many other issues lurk.  To me, it would seem that the salient and compounding factor is OE.

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Mike Sokol

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Re: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2014, 11:24:01 PM »

With all due respect the transformer distro cannot eliminate "line loss"-unless it also repeals the second law of thermodynamics.

Yeah, but if you could use a transformer to step up the voltage by something like a factor of 10 to 1,200 volts (no, don't do this) when step it down by the same winding ratio, then the voltage drop over a long run with the same size wire would be reduced by a factor of 10. That's just due to 1/10 of the amperage needed to supply the needed wattage. Of course, I'm not considering transformer losses and such in this scenario, but this is exactly why Tesla/Westinghouse and not Edison won the first electrical distribution wars.

But TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) so this won't squeeze any more power out of that genny. But I can see where using a generator's 240-volt feed with a step-down transformer to get it back down to 120-volts at the end of the long distro would be beneficial since you could choose to use half the copper weight in the distro run if you were willing to accept the same voltage drop, or half the voltage drop if you wanted to use the same amount of copper in the distro run.

That being said, I'm still not convinced that triplen harmonics in a 120/240-volt split phase system will contribute to overheating in the neutral conductors, notwithstanding Guy's detailed explanation of his technology. Again, I'm not arguing that triplen harmonics don't exist in such a system when powering triac loads because they certainly do. I'm just not sure they're relevant to neutral overheating in single phase distro as they are in 3-phase WYE systems. And that was my original argument about triplen currents in this scenario.

However, I'm going to discuss this with one of my EE buddies who happens to be a sub-station power engineer up near Niagara Falls. One would think that those guys would be able to answer that simple question about triplen currents as they relate to neutral overheating in single or split-phase disto.

BTW: I'm starting to get my vision back after 10 days of bumping around the house, so I'll try to stay on top of these threads a bit more. But this sure is interesting stuff to think about with a lot of potential applications for pro-audio power distro.

Mike Sokol

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Re: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2014, 11:31:21 PM »

Beware the "sag".

This is the OP's subjective assessment of what's happening and is only one possibility. 

You're probably correct. In many cases just getting some good "ears" on a system will tell you a lot about what's really happening. One of my buddies who does mixing for a lot of a-list acts around the world can point out a single fried HF driver near the top of a big stack of speakers. I know this because I've actually seen him do it, then crawled up the stack to check for myself and found he was correct. And like crime witnesses, most end users are really bad at describing what they're hearing, choosing to make up or borrow words rather than providing any real technical description. Not that they don't try or are trying to mislead you. But I need to hear things for myself if I'm going to fix a non-obvious problem.   

Stephen Swaffer

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Re: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass
« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2014, 09:04:13 AM »


I'm a big experiment guy, and while I really like thinking about and discussing theory, at some point you need to run a few real-world experiments and gather some empirical data.

Technically OT in this thread, but a major question mark for me regarding triplen harmonics in single phase systems.  Guy offered no emperical evidence because they don't believe in setup that might cause them. Understandable.

I am reminded of the man standing on a street corner in a midwestern US city waving a pitch fork around.  When asked what he was doing he replied, "I'm keeping he elephants away, doing a good job ain't I?"  You need to show me the elephants before you prove that you got rid of them.
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Guy Holt, Gaffer

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Re: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass
« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2014, 11:09:38 AM »

A a major question mark for me regarding triplen harmonics in single phase systems.  Guy offered no emperical evidence because they don't believe in setup that might cause them… I am reminded of the man standing on a street corner in a midwestern US city waving a pitch fork around.  When asked what he was doing he replied, "I'm keeping he elephants away, doing a good job ain't I?"  You need to show me the elephants before you prove that you got rid of them.

I'm still not convinced that triplen harmonics in a 120/240-volt split phase system will contribute to overheating in the neutral conductors… However, I'm going to discuss this with one of my EE buddies.

So that, this thread doesn’t get hijacked by a debate over whether triplen harmonics do or do not contribute to overheating the neutrals and inverters in paralleling generators I will answer these questions as part of the original thread that is available at: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,150582.0.html

Guy Holt, Gaffer
ScreenLight & Grip
Lighting Rental and Sales in Boston
Cell 617-224-85634
[email protected]
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Re: EU-6500 running 3500 watts of sound - Volume lowers during heavy bass
« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2014, 11:09:38 AM »


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