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Author Topic: Ringing Out  (Read 15895 times)

g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2014, 08:10:39 pm »

I may be missing something here but are the system EQ's not used to tune the room and the discrepancies in the cabinets themselves?? No cabinet will be flat unless it comes with its own processor that will have notch filters built in to adjust the resonant frequencies out of the cabinets, even with a processor it would be very hard to come accross a completely flat room. In my humble opinion you should always tune the system first with a vocal mic to get an idea of what the room is doing then run some good quality well produced music through to further tune the system, once the sytem is as close to flat as you can get it then use the desk eq's to tune each line.......my next peice of advise is pretty much the same as Tim has said, dont be scared to cut frequencies to reach your objective after all isnt that why the eq has the ability to cut in the first place???? if you have a gain loss due to cutting frequencies this can be made up through the desk, compressor or crossover output stages.....usually a little bit added to each will assure a cleaner signal path unless you are using high end compressors such as Aphex Compellor/Dominator or such...................of course using a program such as SI Smaart or another RTA program on a laptop would make life easier but not necessary

With a single open mic out in the sound field, a GEQ/PEQ rack and 15-20 minutes of undisturbed working time it is possible to eliminate the worst of the offending room/system interactions with filters narrow enough that bypassing the PEQ will give no audible difference in a full-spectrum program of music.

I use the GEQ to initially identify the hot spots, then replace the cuts with surgically narrowed PEQ filters.  I restore the GEQ to flat for tonal trim use during the show.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2014, 08:37:19 pm »

D9, exactly.

@ All - The system EQ is set once for the system, not the room. Once the system has been set flat to the best of your ability you have tuned the system. If you have Smaart then fine, if you don't then see above. And this is the LOUNGE, so let's help the newbie's with little experience in a practical way.

MYTH - You don't have to tune the system for every room you enter. Once you've set the system EQ, for general purpose use if you like, it now becomes an exercise in futility to change the system response because you don't like the sound of the kick drum or particular vocal channel in another room. What you're doing at that point is telling yourself you don't like the sound of a particular instrument or mic and re-setting the entire system to accommodate that one device. Use the channel strip EQ first, then if that fails or your board sucks, then go ahead and make minor adjustments, MINOR, to the system EQ, and when you leave set the EQ back to where it was before you started.

I said nothing about monitors, but agree with what has been said. Point them at your face, not your knee caps.

Once you've set the system EQ and your system sounds as good as it can then a minor change may become applicable if the channel strip won't do the job, but how could you possibly know if your first step is to set the system EQ, the system you tuned for general purpose use, flat, removing your baseline settings. Leave the system EQ alone unless you have a very bad problem, don't flatten it for every room, minor changes if the channel strip EQ won't do the job, channel strip EQ first.
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BOSTON STRONG........
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2014, 08:42:25 pm »

Sorry.  My reply just above Bobs was addressing issues other than system EQ...or as usually stated, DSP.  Once your DSP is set, your other EQ will be effective.  Without system tuning via DSP, your other EQ adjustments are less effective in getting the results desired.
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jasonfinnigan

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2014, 08:44:36 pm »

D9, exactly.

@ All - The system EQ is set once for the system, not the room. Once the system has been set flat to the best of your ability you have tuned the system. If you have Smaart then fine, if you don't then see above. And this is the LOUNGE, so let's help the newbie's with little experience in a practical way.

Depends on what your calling the system EQ. IMO the DSP/Speaker processing should be used to tune the gear to each other. Your 31 band eq's outboard or on a digital console should be used for room tuning or adjustments for personal taste.
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Mike Kirby

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2014, 08:45:30 pm »

D9, exactly.

@ All - The system EQ is set once for the system, not the room. Once the system has been set flat to the best of your ability you have tuned the system. If you have Smaart then fine, if you don't then see above. And this is the LOUNGE, so let's help the newbie's with little experience in a practical way.

MYTH - You don't have to tune the system for every room you enter. Once you've set the system EQ, for general purpose use if you like, it now becomes an exercise in futility to change the system response because you don't like the sound of the kick drum or particular vocal channel in another room. What you're doing at that point is telling yourself you don't like the sound of a particular instrument or mic and re-setting the entire system to accommodate that one device. Use the channel strip EQ first, then if that fails or your board sucks, then go ahead and make minor adjustments, MINOR, to the system EQ, and when you leave set the EQ back to where it was before you started.

I said nothing about monitors, but agree with what has been said. Point them at your face, not your knee caps.

Once you've set the system EQ and your system sounds as good as it can then a minor change may become applicable if the channel strip won't do the job, but how could you possibly know if your first step is to set the system EQ, the system you tuned for general purpose use, flat, removing your baseline settings. Leave the system EQ alone unless you have a very bad problem, don't flatten it for every room, minor changes if the channel strip EQ won't do the job, channel strip EQ first.

Agreed, some changes are necessary if the room is overly live such as a concrete and glass box but mostly the system Eq's do not change much.
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Mike Kirby

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2014, 09:49:12 pm »

Depends on what your calling the system EQ. IMO the DSP/Speaker processing should be used to tune the gear to each other. Your 31 band eq's outboard or on a digital console should be used for room tuning or adjustments for personal taste.

I suppose it boils down to personal taste really, I personaly use a Yamaha DME 8iC and Yamaha DME 8oC as my crossovers and notch filter however I still use Passive White 4500's for FOH EQ and an Aphex 320D Compellor and 723 Dominator coupled with a Midas Siena 48/16......but thats just me I like mixing anologue and digital because I just love the Anologue warmth. :)
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2014, 09:59:24 pm »

Sorry.  My reply just above Bobs was addressing issues other than system EQ...or as usually stated, DSP.  Once your DSP is set, your other EQ will be effective.  Without system tuning via DSP, your other EQ adjustments are less effective in getting the results desired.

We're saying the same thing Dick.
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BOSTON STRONG........
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Blake Short

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2014, 11:47:18 pm »

D9, exactly.

@ All - The system EQ is set once for the system, not the room. Once the system has been set flat to the best of your ability you have tuned the system. If you have Smaart then fine, if you don't then see above. And this is the LOUNGE, so let's help the newbie's with little experience in a practical way.

MYTH - You don't have to tune the system for every room you enter. Once you've set the system EQ, for general purpose use if you like, it now becomes an exercise in futility to change the system response because you don't like the sound of the kick drum or particular vocal channel in another room. What you're doing at that point is telling yourself you don't like the sound of a particular instrument or mic and re-setting the entire system to accommodate that one device. Use the channel strip EQ first, then if that fails or your board sucks, then go ahead and make minor adjustments, MINOR, to the system EQ, and when you leave set the EQ back to where it was before you started.

I said nothing about monitors, but agree with what has been said. Point them at your face, not your knee caps.

Once you've set the system EQ and your system sounds as good as it can then a minor change may become applicable if the channel strip won't do the job, but how could you possibly know if your first step is to set the system EQ, the system you tuned for general purpose use, flat, removing your baseline settings. Leave the system EQ alone unless you have a very bad problem, don't flatten it for every room, minor changes if the channel strip EQ won't do the job, channel strip EQ first.

Bob thanks for posting this bit of advice... i'm new to running sound on my new prosonus 16.4.2AI and this post makes a ton of sense to me.  So I'm thinking about tuning my system in my garage... it's about 25x25ish, should be enough room to get sensible results?  Also i'll be doing the tuning with the 31 band in the board, using the "bump" method to ring out the cabinets.  JBL JRX115s.  Does this seem to be the direction i need to be heading to get this system tuned.  Also, do i set the channel strip settings all to unity for the mic i will be using to tune the system?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 11:51:29 pm by Blake Short »
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2014, 12:02:57 am »

Bob thanks for posting this bit of advice... i'm new to running sound on my new prosonus 16.4.2AI and this post makes a ton of sense to me.  So I'm thinking about tuning my system in my garage... it's about 25x25ish, should be enough room to get sensible results?  Also i'll be doing the tuning with the 31 band in the board, using the "bump" method to ring out the cabinets.  JBL JRX115s.  Does this seem to be the direction i need to be heading to get this system tuned.  Also, do i set the channel strip settings all to unity for the mic i will be using to tune the system?

Blake...

There's been a bit of confusion of terms here.  "System EQ" is not generally done with a GEQ, but rather, involves using the PEQ (and in some cases alignment delay) as well as setting the drive levels for the various boxes in the system such as subs/tops or any bi- or tri- amped boxes.  All this is generally done with a DSP.

You  can then use your GEQ for overall tone sculpting of your mix.

So really there are two different things her:

1.  System tuning with DSP...remaining constant from venue to venue and...

2.   Mains EQ using a 31 band GEQ...adjusted to taste for the venue/mix du jour.
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jasonfinnigan

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2014, 12:24:28 am »


So really there are two different things her:

1.  System tuning with DSP...remaining constant from venue to venue and...

2.   Mains EQ using a 31 band GEQ...adjusted to taste for the venue/mix du jour.

+1 exactly the way it should be done.
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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2014, 12:24:28 am »


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