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Author Topic: BC218  (Read 26342 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: BC218
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2015, 07:46:08 pm »

So, time has passed. We all have been patient. Now it is time to tell us more,if you are kind, about how this sub works, measures and sounds. I have seen pictures with 4 of them on Facebook. How they would compare with 4*th812.? Also, I saw that people are using the bc415 but this one,not so many

Thanks,
Paul

People aren't rational. We're not thinking machines, we're - we're feeling machines that happen to think. Peter Watts
I have not had computer internet all day-so here is a better reply.

When comparing the "Danley Big Boy" subs, here is my "take".

The TH812 wins in terms of overall smoothness/accuracy.

The BC415 wins in terms of "punch and fun".

The BC218 wins in terms of low freq fun and has a better "sound" than the BC415.  But you realize it unless you hear them side by side.

THe BC218 wins in terms of rear rejection and "pattern control".

The BC218 winds in terms of flexibility.  There are several ways you can configure it-which affect the freq response and pattern control.

It is not a matter of what is "better", but better for a particular application.

Here are some videos of the BC218 and BC415 in action.

As usual-use headphones to get the most accurate sound.  These are just the raw unprocessed recording from the recorder-a hand held zoom.

This is a field party that used 2 BC218 and 2 SM80s.  You can get more information from the comments/posts
https://www.facebook.com/ivan.beaver/videos/vb.100000581642030/1070611356301576/?type=2&theater

This is at a local HS football field for a event we did for the Atlanta Falcons a couple of weeks ago-we used 2 BC415 for this event.  The system was on "idle" when this was recorded.

We actually had the guy in charge tell us (when we turned it up a bit) and were playing some of the standard "football players rap"- You can't run that much bass during the event-you need to turn it down.  And this was from a guy that loves rap and football-Oh well---------
https://www.facebook.com/DanleySoundLabs/videos/vb.126113687424773/874671725902295/?type=2&theater
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Ivan Beaver

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Re: BC218
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2015, 07:57:08 pm »

Et the event i was describin earlier they replaced the 118 synco subs and they put a total of 24 L'Acoustics sb218 in front of stage.the sound was much better than previous days. Using a bruel&kjaer hand held measurment tool, set to dBA fast peak mesurements,I've measured 114-118 dB at 45 meters FOH. Taking into acount directivity increase, gain, sensitivity and each sub getting 2400 W, what sould I use fro DSL.? Would two J1 and 4 bc218 be enough?

People aren't rational. We're not thinking machines, we're - we're feeling machines that happen to think. Peter Watts
A measurements don't give any idea of how loud the subs were. 

Without any real data or comparisons, it is hard to say how many cabinets are equal to how many other cabinets.

You also have to consider the freq of interest.

At 50Hz it may be a particular ratio, but at 25Hz, that ratio is often QUITE different.

Is that important? It depends on how low you need to go.

But a "wild guess" would be that 4 BC218s would be equal to around 24-32 normal quality 2x18 subs.

Except down at 25 and 30Hz, in which it will take more normal subs to equal the output.

Yes your "mileage" may vary-but is a start.

Regarding the full range cabinets, How loud it really is depends on the integration time of the meter.

You said "fast peak".  A pair of J1s should produce that level (or more)-at that distance as measured by a peak reading meter.

A more "normal SPL meter" (Like a "standard Radio shack"), will show 10dB (give or take) less than that-due to the response time of the meter.

"Fast" on those meter is nowhere nearly as fast as true peak reading meter.  B&K makes real stuff-so I would take those numbers as pretty real.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

radulescu_paul_mircea

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Re: BC218
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2015, 02:37:20 am »

I have not had computer internet all day-so here is a better reply.

When comparing the "Danley Big Boy" subs, here is my "take".

The TH812 wins in terms of overall smoothness/accuracy.

The BC415 wins in terms of "punch and fun".

The BC218 wins in terms of low freq fun and has a better "sound" than the BC415.  But you realize it unless you hear them side by side.

THe BC218 wins in terms of rear rejection and "pattern control".

The BC218 winds in terms of flexibility.  There are several ways you can configure it-which affect the freq response and pattern control.

It is not a matter of what is "better", but better for a particular application.

Here are some videos of the BC218 and BC415 in action.

As usual-use headphones to get the most accurate sound.  These are just the raw unprocessed recording from the recorder-a hand held zoom.

This is a field party that used 2 BC218 and 2 SM80s.  You can get more information from the comments/posts
https://www.facebook.com/ivan.beaver/videos/vb.100000581642030/1070611356301576/?type=2&theater

This is at a local HS football field for a event we did for the Atlanta Falcons a couple of weeks ago-we used 2 BC415 for this event.  The system was on "idle" when this was recorded.

We actually had the guy in charge tell us (when we turned it up a bit) and were playing some of the standard "football players rap"- You can't run that much bass during the event-you need to turn it down.  And this was from a guy that loves rap and football-Oh well---------
https://www.facebook.com/DanleySoundLabs/videos/vb.126113687424773/874671725902295/?type=2&theater
Again,thank you for your your answer. I have seen the videos, but it is fun to watch them again.

People aren't rational. We're not thinking machines, we're - we're feeling machines that happen to think. Peter Watts

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radulescu_paul_mircea

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Re: BC218
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2015, 03:01:20 am »

A measurements don't give any idea of how loud the subs were. 

Without any real data or comparisons, it is hard to say how many cabinets are equal to how many other cabinets.

You also have to consider the freq of interest.

At 50Hz it may be a particular ratio, but at 25Hz, that ratio is often QUITE different.

Is that important? It depends on how low you need to go.

But a "wild guess" would be that 4 BC218s would be equal to around 24-32 normal quality 2x18 subs.

Except down at 25 and 30Hz, in which it will take more normal subs to equal the output.

Yes your "mileage" may vary-but is a start.

Regarding the full range cabinets, How loud it really is depends on the integration time of the meter.

You said "fast peak".  A pair of J1s should produce that level (or more)-at that distance as measured by a peak reading meter.

A more "normal SPL meter" (Like a "standard Radio shack"), will show 10dB (give or take) less than that-due to the response time of the meter.

"Fast" on those meter is nowhere nearly as fast as true peak reading meter.  B&K makes real stuff-so I would take those numbers as pretty real.
Yes, my friend works at environment protection, so that B&K is the real dealer. And $$$. As far as the subs number and quality, I know there are many variables and ,as you always say, "it depends". But is sometimes is good to have a calculated guess from someone with that much experience. Also,when I will present these speakers to the "money guys", it is good for me to know my oppinion is backed up by others from this forum. We have a dealer here in Romania, but he doesn't have any speakers for demo, so I can't show my clients real products, just numbers, pictures examples from around the world and so forth.
Now another question: what can you tell me about the th221? There is not much talk on the web and I never heard about a setup. I would want to use them in a local cinema in the future, the specs looks good (and yous are real), and 4 in a 45/27/9 meters room would be enough.
 And another question: why not use the IPal drivers and modules in your (active) products? You could get around 3 db for a double 18 or 21 and could get a bit lower response (from my simulations)

Regards,
Paul

People aren't rational. We're not thinking machines, we're - we're feeling machines that happen to think. Peter Watts

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radulescu_paul_mircea

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Re: BC218
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2015, 03:49:02 am »

Another curiosity that I have is about the jerichos.
So, from what I see,  the j1 has the bass drivers FLH, with very high output, but the mid-high a little lower. On paper it seems it has the same bass output as 2 bc415.
The j2 is TH on the bass so it will go lower, but less sensitive and has a higher output on mid-hi compared to j1.  On paper, it has the same bass output as one bc218, but from 6 18 inch drivers..
The Caleb seems to me to have the low end of 2 j1 and mid-high end of 2 j2. Until what freq down low, the Caleb keeps it's 40 /15 pattern?

People aren't rational. We're not thinking machines, we're - we're feeling machines that happen to think. Peter Watts

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Keith Broughton

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Re: BC218
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2015, 06:57:49 am »

Ivan, when you say 4 cabinets do you mean 4 of the single boxes (2x18) or 4 "sets" of paired cabinets?
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radulescu_paul_mircea

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Re: BC218
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2015, 07:56:31 am »

It could be. If you have 16 double 18 vented subs,  like electrovoice, they are 96 db efficient. They will gain around 12 db in eff and around 15 from power increase. They have around 3000watts and around 133 db continous. So all in all they will have around 138-140 db at 10 meters

People aren't rational. We're not thinking machines, we're - we're feeling machines that happen to think. Peter Watts

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radulescu_paul_mircea

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Re: BC218
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2015, 10:08:00 am »

bc-218 has around 145 db i used like David use them. They will gain around 4 db in efficiency , 6 db from power increase and around 4 db from directivity. So at 10 meters they will be at around 139 db. But the low end will be at around 24 hz with -3 db. And at 68 hz it will be at 145 db max Damn!!

People aren't rational. We're not thinking machines, we're - we're feeling machines that happen to think. Peter Watts
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 10:12:03 am by radulescu_paul_mircea »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: BC218
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2015, 07:43:17 am »


Now another question: what can you tell me about the th221? There is not much talk on the web and I never heard about a setup. I would want to use them in a local cinema in the future, the specs looks good (and yous are real), and 4 in a 45/27/9 meters room would be enough.
 And another question: why not use the IPal drivers and modules in your (active) products? You could get around 3 db for a double 18 or 21 and could get a bit lower response (from my simulations)


The TH221 was designed (like it name-the cinimonster) to a high output sub that gets you solid down to 20Hz -without room gain.

With room gain-it is even more.

It does not have as much output as some of our other large subs, but it goes lower.

With bass extension you HAVE to trade something.

It is being used in a number of high end theaters.

The IPAL is an interesting driver.  Just because it "appears" to be better, does not mean it will actually WORK better.

In some designs it might, but Tom has modeled it several times and the big advantage of the IPAL (motor strength) is actually to much for our horn designs. 

So we can actually get better performance with a "weaker" driver-at a lower cost.

So once again-it is not what is "better", but what is "better for a specific usage".

We do this in a number of our designs.  Sometimes the "lessor" driver ends up working better.

That is the reason you model-measure etc, and don't just "stick popular drivers" in cabinets.

It is all about how the different parts of the overall cabinet work together.  Not only the drivers themselves, but also the cabinet, crossover etc.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Ivan Beaver

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Re: BC218
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2015, 07:51:25 am »

Another curiosity that I have is about the jerichos.
So, from what I see,  the j1 has the bass drivers FLH, with very high output, but the mid-high a little lower. On paper it seems it has the same bass output as 2 bc415.
The j2 is TH on the bass so it will go lower, but less sensitive and has a higher output on mid-hi compared to j1.  On paper, it has the same bass output as one bc218, but from 6 18 inch drivers..
The Caleb seems to me to have the low end of 2 j1 and mid-high end of 2 j2. Until what freq down low, the Caleb keeps it's 40 /15 pattern?


This is what happens when you compare the "simple numbers".

You HAVE to look at not just the SPL numbers but ALSO the freq response.

Yes the J1 has a HUGE amount of bass output (one of my favorite cabinets), but it does not go as low the BC415.

Depending on styles of music, you could need 4 or more BC415/BC218s to "keep up" with J1.  On other styles it is more like 2:1.

Yes the Caleb (J5) has 12x 18" woofers, but it is VERY different than the J1 in several ways.

Because we were not interested in the Caleb going real low, we used lighter weight (than the J1 or BC218) 18" woofers, that gave us more output where we really needed it.

Also they are loaded on a much shorter horn than the J1.

The idea for the J1 was to have a single full range cabinet that could be used for most normal types of music without a sub.

The Caleb would probably always be used with subs in a larger situation-so it did not need to go as low.

Off hand I don't know low low the Caleb maintains its pattern control-but we (not me) have done the measurements and will be getting the data into our DIRECT modeling program soon.

But due to the large mouth, it is much lower than other 40* cabinets.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: BC218
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2015, 07:51:25 am »


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