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Author Topic: 2-3 second echo in old restored church building in Turkey  (Read 1626 times)

motty

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2-3 second echo in old restored church building in Turkey
« on: September 24, 2005, 05:01:26 am »

Hi there,

I'm looking for some advice on how to improve the acoustics of an old restored church building here in Bursa, Turkey.

Last year the Bursa Protestant Church started to use an old restored French church building that was built a couple of hundred years ago. It was derelict for years but then the local council, encouraged by a group of Catholic Christians, decided that they would restore it to it's former glory and amazingly have allowed us to use the building for our Sunday worship.

The only problem is that the building has awful accoustics. You can see a picture of the church on our site (www.bursakilisesi.com) which is basically a large square stone building. Inside there are stone walls and a stone marbled floor and a fairly large stone dome. All this leads to a 2-3 second reverb making it hard work understanding the person at the front of the church when speaking.

What we would like to do is improve the accoustics and eliminate some of this echo. We have two problems. Firstly we are not allowed to fix anything to any walls or the ceiling, any solution has to be free standing and removable after our meeting.

Also we don't have a lot of cash. The fellowship is only small and not in a position to make large investments towards hi-tech solutions....

Any advice would be appreciated for ways that we can eliminate some of the echo.

Many thanks,

Nick
see attached pics for more views of the church

Rob Timmerman

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Re: 2-3 second echo in old restored church building in Turkey
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2005, 08:09:38 pm »

Some things you might try:
Fill the pews with people.
Cushions on the pews.
Carpet in the aisles
Pipe and drape along the walls (with heavy drape if you can)
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Greg Hertfelder

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Re: 2-3 second echo in old restored church building in Turkey
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2005, 02:00:58 am »

I agree, Rob.

Your mission, Nick, is to disrupt the direct and reflected paths of acoustical energy between hard, typically parallel surfaces, using soft materials (preferably treated with flame-retardent chemicals) or commercially-manufactured sound absorption materials that may be screwed to the wall, such as Tectum. Personally, I would treat the side and back walls first, as they tend to have the most surface area, and would be the culprit in first generation reflections.

Also, commercially-made or home-made banners / flags may be suspended in areas where curtains are impractical, such as high in a vaulted ceiling. Curtains, banners or flags should not obstruct the acoustical path of loudspeakers, or your problems will be multiplied.

Although I don't agree with all of the terminology in this site, it is one of many sites helpful with acoustical treatment considerations of churches.
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Stuart O'Toole

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Re: 2-3 second echo in old restored church building in Turkey
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2005, 08:46:48 pm »

Hi

From you inital comments where you cant hangs things of the sides or roof does make thing a bit tricky. I would look at a portable system.

From looking at the people and instruments in the photos i don't think you need to be Flying some huge array.

I would be looking at a portable system like a Bose or if could afford it like a Nexo Ps 10 or 15. You need to be direct focus not like a speaker with 90 x 60 coverage. The tighter patterns would help direct sound to the source.


Cheers
Stuie
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Michael 'Bink' Knowles

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Re: 2-3 second echo in old restored church building in Turkey
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2005, 11:27:53 pm »

Quote:

...we are not allowed to fix anything to any walls or the ceiling, any solution has to be free standing and removable after our meeting.


Helium balloons can help break up sharp reflections in high overhead spaces. You can bring balloons in and free-float them to the ceiling or anchor them in bunches.

Perhaps there is a way to mount kilims or other soft fabrics on free standing wooden frames around the room. Can you erect one or more upside-down U-shaped frames that straddle the room? Maybe you can hang heavy fabrics from a frame like this:
 __________/          \   |          |  |          |  |          |  |          |  |          |--        --

Make certain to put enough sandbags on the bases to make them safe.

Good luck!
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Michael 'Bink' Knowles
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Greg Hertfelder

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Re: 2-3 second echo in old restored church building in Turkey
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2005, 11:59:58 pm »

On second thought, given your restrictions, I think Rob nailed it when he recommended pipe & drape for arresting acoustical reflection. If you are not familiar with pipe & drape, it is used in the exhibition / trade show industry, and is very easy to set up. The "pipe" is lightweight, telescoping aluminum tubing with industry-standard temporary fittings. Examples: Draper, Weiss, Crown. It is is modular, and you could make an initial investment for one or two sections, and then buy components for additional segments. Height is adjustable.

One caveat...a wall of pipe & drape without outriggers can be toppled by a good gust of wind or air condition system, so creating sections that join at a right angle is good common sense. In your case, you would connect the sections at the corners of the back & side walls.
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Kevin Maxwell AKA TheMAXX

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Re: 2-3 second echo in old restored church building in Turkey
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2005, 12:35:15 pm »

The problem may be with the ceiling but if the walls are your problem I would try something that will disrupt the reflections off of the walls. When we needed pipe and drape for a show in France we had to bring it with us it doesn’t seem to exist over there. But our use was to dress up the stage. It would have to be very heavy material to have a significant impact on the sound.

I don’t know if you have them over there but in the US they make a thing called a sono tube it is a cardboard tube used as a form when they pour concrete posts. It comes in different diameters and lengths. I have heard of a trick to take 4-foot tall 12inch round tubes and cut them lengthwise. Thus making 2 - 4 foot tall out rounds. You could then screw these on to a pole so the bottom sits about 3 feet off the ground and place them around the room at the side and back walls with the rounded part facing out. Then you could make (religious) banners that hang from the front of these to make them look pretty. Also be sure to treat them with fireproofing stuff for safety sake.  

The following link is where I read about this.
http://www.allchurchsound.com/ACS/edart/sono1.html
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Kevin Maxwell
Freelance Audio Eng. QBE

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: 2-3 second echo in old restored church building in Turkey
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2005, 12:35:15 pm »


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