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[David Sturzenbecher]

I have been in your situation plenty of times as a system tech.  A lot of green engineers and even some older guys with their first time on a digital desk. 

Often the first timers will ask me to do sound check, and turn it over to them,  I walk them through every knob turn and button push.  Once the band is ready to do a song, I hand it over. The first song I will stand beside and give artistic suggestions, after that the suggestions stop.  I'll stay beside them for 3-4 songs, then they get a "how's it going?".  If all is good....I tell them I am going to take a walk and listen to how the PA sounds.  I think leaving them alone for a few minutes is good for them. I even got a sizable tip from a fellow engineer for quick and dirty M7 mixing. I brought the coffee and doughnuts the next day.

If it's not a digital newbie and they are totally sucking out loud the only thing I would ever do is ask "how's it going, anything I can do for you?" I have gotten everything from...umm yeah, can you fix "this" to... Can you run back stage and get me a beer.  I am fine with either... First beer is free.

[Jay Barracato]

When I switched over from mostly band tech to house tech, I made it my goal to make sure the rig was such that it was an easy and fun night to mix for a visiting tech.

I will offer guidance as requested and tell them what the room standards are, but in the end how they meet those is their business.

I take some pride as a house tech when a visitor walks in, does a great mix, and never even touches the house eq (has happened multiple times with several different techs).

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[Steve Cook]

I have been in your situation plenty of times as a system tech.  A lot of green engineers and even some older guys with their first time on a digital desk. 

Often the first timers will ask me to do sound check, and turn it over to them,  I walk them through every knob turn and button push.  Once the band is ready to do a song, I hand it over. The first song I will stand beside and give artistic suggestions, after that the suggestions stop.  I'll stay beside them for 3-4 songs, then they get a "how's it going?".  If all is good....I tell them I am going to take a walk and listen to how the PA sounds.  I think leaving them alone for a few minutes is good for them. I even got a sizable tip from a fellow engineer for quick and dirty M7 mixing. I brought the coffee and doughnuts the next day.

If it's not a digital newbie and they are totally sucking out loud the only thing I would ever do is ask "how's it going, anything I can do for you?" I have gotten everything from...umm yeah, can you fix "this" to... Can you run back stage and get me a beer.  I am fine with either... First beer is free.

Friends, let me clarify a little bit here.  First, the band contacted me in a respectful way asking if their guy could mix.  Of course I was all for it.  They were very courteous about asking and stated they would not be offended if I didn't allow it.  I made sure to get him everything he wanted, and he chose the mics and input list.  Out of the gate it was affirmed that any and all suggestions I might have would be met with an open mind.  I kept relatively quiet.  There was a 'rumble' coming from one of the drum OH's, and that's where I suggested the HP filter.  He had about a 4db boost at 60hz on the kick drum mic and it sounded muddy and I also made a suggestion for him to cut it and shelf it.   

It was only after my 'boss' stated displeasure that I went to FOH and said 'Hey, can you give me a few minutes on the console to tweek a couple of little things?'  And he was fine with it.  Like I said, I made sure to explain all the changes I made, and I saw the light bulb go on in his head after the changes were made, and the sound was considerably better.  He thanked me and I told him 'hey, you got us across the river, I just hitched the boat to the trailer.'

My apologies if my brief thread starter made me look like a jerk, a bush league operator, or a 'don't play with my toys' kind of person.  I'm not that way, or at least I don't think I am, and I don't think anyone has ever thought that of me---yesterday was a 17 hour day and I posted pre-coffee time.  What I should have stated was-----

'How do you guys handle it when the local band comes to your rig to mix with their sound guy, and he's lacking in some skills?  And then what do you do when your boss states unhappiness?'

I do note my mistakes in this event, the first one being that I didn't contact their guy prior to the show.  Next, I should have done sound check and got the system 'ready' for him.  His experience is with a couple of powered boxes on sticks maybe powered subs.  I had plenty of rig for the gig, the system was never pushed.  In the future, if the BE is someone that I do not know, with the veteran advice from this forum, I know what's accepted and proper. 

I'm always analyzing every show, as to what was right, what was wrong, what can be done better, smoother, etc etc.   and I truly realize the need to be personable in the work environment.  Some of my clients use me just because I'm fun and easy going and attentive to their needs.  I spent 5 years as a golf professional to help develop customer relation skills.  Still can't putt, tho.   

I appreciate and respect everyone's opinions and advice in this forum, and it has helped me in my system set up, mixing, and business skills. And I've also learned a couple good jokes.

[Tim McCulloch]

Hi Steve-

You have the horns of a dilemma - an obligation of some sort to your superiors for the perceived quality of the audio, and the professional responsibility to work in a respectful and collegial manner.

I think a meeting with your boss is in order, because if you're going to be accountable you must have authority and support.  That said, if you are expected to take over FOH every time your boss doesn't like the mix, it will give the venue a negative reputation among talent brokers and agents.  Only your superiors can decide how to handle that.

Visiting band engineers, their PM/TM (if any) and agency should be told early in the booking process about this and any other potentially divisive rules or restrictions, and again it's on your "betters" to do this.  You should not be thrown under the bus for their decisions.

Now that's out of the way....  Over the decades I've had BEs that were clearly in over their head (and I've been one of them, too) for a variety of reasons, and the art is figuring out how to be genuinely helpful without taking over in a way that is insulting or causes them to lose face with their employer.  We've had some good suggestions in this thread, and one approach I use is "we're tight on time with this changeover, and I'd be happy to rough in channel gains and EQs while you call the line check".  That works for BEs who are either in over their head or are simply unfamiliar with the mixer you're providing.  The unfamiliar will eventually get their mix together, the rest... depends.

A couple of years ago we had a show where the middle act BE had little experience on digital mixers and asked for help before his stage was set.  I went over a couple of things in advance, and did the line check with him.  He built his mix and had questions about certain status indicators and location of some controls but by and large he got it together fairly fast and I thought he had the best sounding mix of the night.  The flip side is that a couple of months later, we nearly sent out the PM4000 and outboards on a show.  It ended up with an SC48, IIRC, but I mentioned to the headline act BE that he almost had an analog FOH, and he said "I've never mixed a show on an analog rig, you'd have to walk me through it."

It's a great time to be in audio. 

[John Moore]

We have experienced on many occasions, that the "bands sound guy" that shows up , is typically and audio idiot and find it hard to believe that he got a gig with the band to mix them in the first place..we let them run and have limiting in place so they don't toast the rig, etc. and I grab a lawn chair and surf the web...if they suck they suck.

[Richard Turner]

I've basically got 3 simple rules

1: red lights are generally bad, yellow lights are usually not your friend either.

2: If you want outboard stuff repatched please ask me to do it, As I will likely be the one at the end of the night to put it back to they way I like using it for tomorrow.

3: your beer goes in that cupholder over there.

Aside from that I prefer to stand back and answer any question, I tend to refrain from even standing in front the console unless asked to do something specific when BE is onstage and asking for something to be done at the desk. As far as I'm concerned its their workstation at that point.

[Bill Schnake]

I thought I was pretty easy to work with in this situation?  No?

Steve, In all of the years I have been doing this I have seen it from both sides as a provider and as a visiting BE.  As a provider I have only had to reign in a visiting BE one time.  It was with a band out of California.  The bass players son was the BE and he couldn't get 1.2k out of the system.  He simply ignored it.  The Venue owner ask me what was going on, I explained and added: I can fix this, you simply have to tell me that you want it fix.  He said clearly he did.  Went to the main graph pulled down 1.2k 3 db dropped 1.6 about 1 db and no more  feedback.  The visiting BE looked at me like I was crazy and all I said was the owner is tired of hearing the feedback.  He apologized and we had a great night.

As a visiting BE, I always asked for a full description of how the system is setup prior to arrival.  Do I have L/R/C are subs on an Aux.  What is a reasonable SPL for your place.  I have only once had a problem and it was a show in Key West.  Local company decided that they wanted their engineer to mix.  I politely ask if I could stand by him and let him know when solos were coming and he said yes.  After the first 30 seconds he realized that the entire band didn't have any amps on stage and they were only using preamp processors.  It was amazing how quickly he wanted me to take over.

All I am saying is as a BE, be respectful and find out what you are getting into before you get to the show...as a provider, be respectful to the BE and find out what you are getting into prior to the show.

Bill 

[eric lenasbunt]

I think a point that is being missed here is that this sounds like a local band with a friend that mixes for them, not a real BE.

I do a similar series in my city and would definitely take back the reigns (respectfully) if needed. Of course, if we are talking a national act or traveling group, etc, it would be a different story. But the local guys also usually do as this one did, step aside and let the professional help.

I have been in a similar situation but the BE actually got scared pretty quickly by the  "complexity" of the console. He was wise enough to recognize he needed my help. We got it worked out and he had a good night riding faders for solos that I may have missed.

So while I agree with all the folks commenting how you need to accommodate and let the BE mix, for the local stuff with a known inexperienced BE I think you handled it very respectfully and well, and it sounds like it was received that way.

[Luke Geis]

I was the lucky house tech for Pete Yorn last night! It was the easiest gig I have had all year. It's very simple. When the band has there own BE, I simply answer questions and make what ever they want to happen possible. Needless to say it's no surprise that Pete had own sound guy. Very nice fellow that knew his stuff and was very easy to accommodate. In the end, the show went well and I didn't have to touch one single knob the whole night! I got paid to literally stand by. I was also tipped by the BE for my help and cheerful attitude! At the end of the show he told me that of the hundreds of gigs he has done, I was one of the best techs he has the joy of working with. All I did was give help him enthusiastically and make things happen for him.

I once had a bad attitude for visiting BE's until I realized that I had a system that was well sorted and I can let them take the heat from the band and the crowd if they couldn't stand on their own. I answer questions, make things happen and everyone is happy most of the time. In the meantime I am getting paid to look good and sit in the shade! If things go south I am always very close by to save the day.

[Brian Jojade]

It was only after my 'boss' stated displeasure that I went to FOH and said 'Hey, can you give me a few minutes on the console to tweek a couple of little things?'  And he was fine with it.  Like I said, I made sure to explain all the changes I made, and I saw the light bulb go on in his head after the changes were made, and the sound was considerably better. 

------
'How do you guys handle it when the local band comes to your rig to mix with their sound guy, and he's lacking in some skills?  And then what do you do when your boss states unhappiness?'

Your boss has the final word.  If he tells you to take control, that's what you have to do.  When the sitting operator gets offended, you tell him it was your boss's decision, not yours.

Now, if you can prevent your boss from having to make that decision, that's the ideal situation. Having a checklist of questions to present to guest operators will help you determine what their likelihood of being able to perform without assistance.  i.e., have you ever used this model of console before?  What's the normal console you operate on?  What's the normal size of show you mix for?  Etc, etc.  Within just a few questions, you'll know the level of operator you are working with. 

The less experienced they are, the easier it is to get the show set beforehand for them.  i.e., if they have never used this model of console, you can suggest that it would be quicker if you worked the buttons to get the preset done.  They can be aside you for 'guidance' but you get the initial mix in place.  What they do with it afterwards is their business.  If they totally muck it up and you have to go back in, at least you can tell your boss that the mix started off decent.

[ProSoundWeb Community]