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Author Topic: Sanctuary remodel q's  (Read 6047 times)

Tim Martin

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Sanctuary remodel q's
« on: May 07, 2014, 02:31:18 pm »

I'm overseeing sound at a small church, and we are about to do a remodel of the sanctuary. This gives opportunity to upgrade our speaker system and location etc. I am looking for input on this.

Currently we meet in a 30' x 40' room with about a 12' high drop ceiling. The pulpit is in the center of the 40' edge, and our 2 speakers are currently mounted in the front corners pointed toward the center of the room.  We expect to take out the drop ceiling and add drywall flat ceiling up to about 14' high. We are thinking of moving the speakers to the center above the pulpit to add a more natural sound. (location of speakers correlating with location of the preacher) The speakers we are using are model Yamaha S12e.

So here's the question. Should we add a third speaker to the cluster in the center above the pulpit? If so, what kind would you recommend based on what we have now? Also, do you agree that we should try to move them to the center above the pulpit? We use the speakers mostly for amplifying the sermon, and also to amplify the voice and guitar of the worship leader (me). We have plenty of horsepower in the amplifiers and lots of options in the sound board (prosonus system)

Any thoughts, suggestions are welcome.
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Robert Healey

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2014, 03:56:02 pm »

I hope you are planning to replace the sound absorption provided by the drop ceiling. With poor acoustics, even the best sound system will sound bad.
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Lee Douglas

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2014, 04:32:09 pm »

The speakers we are using are model Yamaha S12e.

So here's the question. Should we add a third speaker to the cluster in the center above the pulpit?

The manual does not show any fly points for those speakers, so hanging those above the pulpit is a bad idea unless (insert standard issue faith joke here).  That aside and presuming that you're going to use some sort of wall mount pole mount, the manual lists the HF dispersion on each speaker as 90 degrees, for a total of 180 degrees between the two of them.  A third cabinet would not much help here.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2014, 04:46:44 pm »

I'm overseeing sound at a small church, and we are about to do a remodel of the sanctuary. This gives opportunity to upgrade our speaker system and location etc. I am looking for input on this.

Currently we meet in a 30' x 40' room with about a 12' high drop ceiling. The pulpit is in the center of the 40' edge, and our 2 speakers are currently mounted in the front corners pointed toward the center of the room.  We expect to take out the drop ceiling and add drywall flat ceiling up to about 14' high. We are thinking of moving the speakers to the center above the pulpit to add a more natural sound. (location of speakers correlating with location of the preacher) The speakers we are using are model Yamaha S12e.

So here's the question. Should we add a third speaker to the cluster in the center above the pulpit? If so, what kind would you recommend based on what we have now? Also, do you agree that we should try to move them to the center above the pulpit? We use the speakers mostly for amplifying the sermon, and also to amplify the voice and guitar of the worship leader (me). We have plenty of horsepower in the amplifiers and lots of options in the sound board (prosonus system)

Any thoughts, suggestions are welcome.

Hard, flat slabs of ceiling are extremely problematic.  You need to avoid what I think is being proposed.  Speaker positioning is WAY secondary to room acoustics.

Get the room right first.
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Tim Martin

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2014, 09:11:56 pm »

I hope you are planning to replace the sound absorption provided by the drop ceiling. With poor acoustics, even the best sound system will sound bad.

The drop ceiling is not acoustic tiles, but some glossy plastic panels, with flourescent lights intersperced. (angled with slight rise upward from each long edge of room, and ridge goes along the center of the sanctuary longways facing the pulpit) It might be acoustic material, but I'm not sure...
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Tim Martin

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2014, 09:13:46 pm »

Hard, flat slabs of ceiling are extremely problematic.  You need to avoid what I think is being proposed.  Speaker positioning is WAY secondary to room acoustics.

Get the room right first.

Can you recommend some kind of ceiling material that could help with the echo in there? There is old acoustic tile above the drop ceiling, but not sure what kind of shape it would be in with wires going up into it and all.
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Tim Padrick

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2014, 02:40:26 am »

You will spend thousands to replace the ceiling, then spend hundreds if not a grand or two making the new ceiling sound as good as the old ceiling.  (Or you will suffer a sound that is much worse than you have now.)  Just leave the ceiling be - or raise it.
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Tim Martin

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2014, 02:46:57 pm »

You will spend thousands to replace the ceiling, then spend hundreds if not a grand or two making the new ceiling sound as good as the old ceiling.  (Or you will suffer a sound that is much worse than you have now.)  Just leave the ceiling be - or raise it.

The current ceiling is ugly and very dated (1970s) it's this shiny masonite or plastic panels. That's one of the reasons we are even doing the remodel... I don't think it's sound absorption would be very much better than a flat drywall ceiling. Maybe there is a kind of paint that can be used to lessen the sound reflection? or some other material we could look at?
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2014, 03:13:41 pm »

The current ceiling is ugly and very dated (1970s) it's this shiny masonite or plastic panels. That's one of the reasons we are even doing the remodel... I don't think it's sound absorption would be very much better than a flat drywall ceiling. Maybe there is a kind of paint that can be used to lessen the sound reflection? or some other material we could look at?

There are two major factors to consider:

Diffusion

Absorption/reflection.

Without going into the obvious things you could learn from Google and actual personal research/effort, I'll second leaving the ceiling as is and replacing the reflective panels with acoustic ones.

DO NOT paint acoustic marpterials.  That merely renders them reflective. 
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2014, 08:39:36 am »


 We are thinking of moving the speakers to the center above the pulpit to add a more natural sound.

So here's the question. Should we add a third speaker to the cluster in the center above the pulpit? If so, what kind would you recommend based on what we have now? Also, do you agree that we should try to move them to the center above the pulpit?
Adding speakers is very often the WORSE thing you can do-due to the fact that they are interfering with each other.

I would highly consider a SINGLE wide coverage loudspeaker above the pulpit.  MUCH better than 2 of any loudspeaker.

You will have less interference and great localization.
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Tim Martin

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2014, 11:50:54 am »

Adding speakers is very often the WORSE thing you can do-due to the fact that they are interfering with each other.

I would highly consider a SINGLE wide coverage loudspeaker above the pulpit.  MUCH better than 2 of any loudspeaker.

You will have less interference and great localization.

Ok, how about a recommended speaker for this 30 x 40 room? At the back of the room is overflow area (doubles as fellowship hall) and this area has regular 8' high ceiling with small speakers throughout hooked into the sound system. So mostly what we need is a single wide coverage speaker. Recommendations?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2014, 04:03:02 pm »

Ok, how about a recommended speaker for this 30 x 40 room? At the back of the room is overflow area (doubles as fellowship hall) and this area has regular 8' high ceiling with small speakers throughout hooked into the sound system. So mostly what we need is a single wide coverage speaker. Recommendations?

More details are needed.  We know the size of the room-but what is the size/shape of the stage in the room-how far are the people from the stage-what is the seating layout etc.

A single speaker in the middle may (or may not) be enough-it depends on the actual coverage needed.

A simple hand drawing with some dimensions would help greatly.

It may be that you need some side speakers to cover the seats down front on the left and right-we have no idea-since we don't know the actual layout.
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Ivan Beaver
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Tim Martin

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2014, 01:27:10 am »

More details are needed.  We know the size of the room-but what is the size/shape of the stage in the room-how far are the people from the stage-what is the seating layout etc.

A single speaker in the middle may (or may not) be enough-it depends on the actual coverage needed.

A simple hand drawing with some dimensions would help greatly.

It may be that you need some side speakers to cover the seats down front on the left and right-we have no idea-since we don't know the actual layout.

Here's a look at the basic arrangement: see attachment
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2014, 12:55:47 pm »

Here's a look at the basic arrangement: see attachment
What sort of budget is there to work with

It doesn't matter how well a particular speaker might work if it is not in the budget
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Tim Martin

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2014, 03:04:24 pm »

What sort of budget is there to work with

It doesn't matter how well a particular speaker might work if it is not in the budget

Budget for speakers hasn't really been discussed, but I think there would be money for a decent speaker there if we determined that the two we have couldn't really do the job. (say, up to $500?) We are inclined to try hanging the 2 we have already. What do you see as the negatives to doing that? (btw, we are also now looking at installing an acoustic tile flat ceiling in the room as a way of trying to minimize echo and reflected sound...)
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2014, 10:01:13 am »

Budget for speakers hasn't really been discussed, but I think there would be money for a decent speaker there if we determined that the two we have couldn't really do the job. (say, up to $500?) We are inclined to try hanging the 2 we have already. What do you see as the negatives to doing that? (btw, we are also now looking at installing an acoustic tile flat ceiling in the room as a way of trying to minimize echo and reflected sound...)
If that is all the budget there is-and based on the layout/size of the room-I would hang 1 each of your current speakers in the middle each of the seating sections and be done with it.

Do NOT hang a 3rd speaker in the middle-it will do more damage than good.
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Ivan Beaver
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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2014, 11:50:26 am »

If that is all the budget there is-and based on the layout/size of the room-I would hang 1 each of your current speakers in the middle each of the seating sections and be done with it.

Do NOT hang a 3rd speaker in the middle-it will do more damage than good.

Provided that the speakers in question are rated flyable...
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Tim Martin

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2014, 06:41:18 pm »

If that is all the budget there is-and based on the layout/size of the room-I would hang 1 each of your current speakers in the middle each of the seating sections and be done with it.

Do NOT hang a 3rd speaker in the middle-it will do more damage than good.

A recent thought was to instead add a number of smaller flush-mount speakers in the ceiling (like we have in the fellowship hall) Any thoughts about that idea?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2014, 07:35:32 pm »

A recent thought was to instead add a number of smaller flush-mount speakers in the ceiling (like we have in the fellowship hall) Any thoughts about that idea?
With a $500 budget- you would have to find some really cheap speakers and assume the labor would be free.

You just really don't have much money to work with.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2014, 07:36:49 pm »

Provided that the speakers in question are rated flyable...
AND installed by a COMPETENT installer who has insurance and skills to hang things over peoples heads that could fall and kill them!!!!!
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Ivan Beaver
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Tim Martin

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2014, 12:23:29 pm »

With a $500 budget- you would have to find some really cheap speakers and assume the labor would be free.

You just really don't have much money to work with.

Well, the labor would be free, and I don't think $500 is a hard number at all. That was just out of my head in thinking of trying to think about what we might be ready to spend for a single speaker without even asking the board etc. A better system could probably be "sold" to the decision makers if we knew it was going to be a good long term solution.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sanctuary remodel q's
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2014, 12:38:13 pm »

Well, the labor would be free, and I don't think $500 is a hard number at all. That was just out of my head in thinking of trying to think about what we might be ready to spend for a single speaker without even asking the board etc. A better system could probably be "sold" to the decision makers if we knew it was going to be a good long term solution.
So you have somebody who is licensed-insured and has done this work before who is willing to do it for free.  Good for you.

You might want to ask them what their recommendation is-since they are experienced in this.

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