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Author Topic: Brand name cost me gigs  (Read 49981 times)

Russ Davis

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Branded
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2014, 10:20:03 pm »

(Deleted, too far off-topic)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 12:05:04 pm by Russ Davis »
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Michael A. Yates

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Re: Brand name cost me gigs
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2014, 10:42:50 pm »


Heck we like grundorf stuff http://www.grundorf.com/index.php?type=SOUN   but it seems no ones ever heard of them so we done get to use it much.

Never heard of them but it seems they have a wide range of products...


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Michael A. Yates

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Re: Brand name cost me gigs
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2014, 10:44:38 pm »


With a logo which looks like Behringer's from a distance!


Steve.

Looks like an exact copy of the Behringer logo...


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jasonfinnigan

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Re: Brand name cost me gigs
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2014, 10:48:28 pm »

Looks like an exact copy of the Behringer logo...


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Maybe from a distance. It's just a triangle with GAD (Grundorf Audio design) in it.

http://www.grundorf.com/index.php?type=about-us

Manheim Steamroller used them on tour.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 10:51:51 pm by JasonFinnigan »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Brand name cost me gigs
« Reply #94 on: April 19, 2014, 01:35:03 am »

Maybe from a distance. It's just a triangle with GAD (Grundorf Audio design) in it.

http://www.grundorf.com/index.php?type=about-us

Manheim Steamroller used them on tour.

Chip Davis also uses a lot of wine on tour... but he's not playing on his Mannheim gigs anymore.

I was on the local crew and was surprised at the amount of Grundorf on stage but never had the opportunity to "hear them in anger."  One of the things I noticed was the relatively light weight of the monitor wedges, though.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Brand name cost me gigs
« Reply #95 on: April 19, 2014, 02:15:38 am »

Scott, my advice for new purchases (and you may have read this before) is that if new gear will help you keep an account, secure a new and higher-paying account (or lets you raise your rates on existing clients), gain you entree to work that you'd not be considered for otherwise... AND you can have some reasonable idea of the return you'll earn, it probably makes sense to seriously consider adding to your inventory.

You're talking about adding several thousand dollars worth of equipment.  If you're at the $200/night (just an arbitrary number) and the new client pays $300 and does 4 shows a month you're still looking at 12 - 24 months to pay off the purchase cost.  If your rate card is higher you'll pay out sooner, ditto if the band plays a lot.  Obviously it also depends on models you buy, new or used, etc.

When you make this step up it will inevitably be followed by yet more purchases (more mics, cables, stands, sub snakes, monitors, new PA eventually).

I replied to a post here at PSW a couple of years ago that became the basis for a blog post:  http://soundforums.net/blogs/tim-mcculloch/460-next-level-unicorn-production-business.html  I started out as a guy with a Ford Econoline van full of PA, sort of "engineered" to work as a functional system.  I was like most of the folks here in the Lounge.  Now that I'm 30+ years into this, I have the benefit of hindsight.  It is not necessary that you should repeat my mistakes or mistakes I have observed. 8)  So read the blog post and understand that the monetary scale I talk about there isn't material to your situation (move decimal places as may be appropriate), but the underlying concepts are universal.

Acknowledging that growth is expensive, so too is inaction if you're in a competitive market.  Growth for it's own sake makes sense only when the monetary reward is significant (and that's unlikely in scenarios either of us will be in).  But darn it, growth is also very appealing.  Keeping that in mind, what, exactly do you get for investing $4k - $6K for a gig that could disappear with the fickleness of a lead singer or drama queen drummer?  Can you adequately service your existing clients if you take this on?  Ask yourself the question "what's in this for me?"

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

I just lost a deal with a local "supergroup" (band made up of various members of very well established local heavy hitters) because I use Behringer power amps.

I'm personally very happy with the amps, other than the fact they're a little noisy in an empty room, but the income they cost me would have more than made up for the price difference to buy a more acceptable brand name. Ouch.  Really makes me rethink me equipment list. I know my rig sounds great, but if potential clients are discounting me based on their opinions of the equipment I own I have to wonder how many phones calls I never got because the equip list on my website isn't "good" enough.

Yeah, they said as long as I was using those amps they could not use me. At least they were honest about it. They also said I needed to have (4) LS808s instead of the 2 I currently use. That one puzzled me a bit as there are no rooms(they'd be only playing bars and clubs) in my area that would require 4 of those cabs for live music.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Bob Leonard

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Re: Brand name cost me gigs
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2014, 06:10:11 am »

That's a great post Tim, and a very good link for all to follow.

Scott,
There's another side to investing in pro level hardware as well. There will come a day when your age, life style, and your body tell you it's time to slow down, and at age 62 I've reached that point on all counts.

It's been a wonderful and sometimes not so wonderful 50 year journey full of surprises, goals reached, and goals never to be reached. But, through all of that time the one thing I kept constant was to make sure every purchase I made was for the best hardware I could afford. Keep in mind that in my day rental houses really didn't exist and it was a normal event to borrow equipment from another band, and there wasn't a lot to choose from in the beginning either, but you could still buy junk if you wanted to or didn't care. Doing my homework and making sure I owned or borrowed the best I could afford or find led to better paying and more visible jobs then, and it still does to this day. Hey, raise your hand if you were 16 and opened for Cream in 1968. Back then every band brought their own PA for the most  part. I had a good band, and good hardware that filled the auditorium, and that's what got me the job. That was the day the light really turned on bright over marble mountain. That was the day I fully realized that good was one thing, but good with pro level gear was something else all together.
 
Once I decide to pull the plug I don't think I'll have much trouble reselling my hardware, but until then one look at my system should tell the people I'm working for that I came to do the job the way it should be done, and without fear of hardware failure, be it at a small club, or in front of a few thousand people. Make your choices wisely, save your money, buy the best you can for the job you're going to do, and build on that.
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: Brand name cost me gigs
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2014, 08:39:31 am »

This has been some great discussion and as always you guys have given me a lot to think about. A little background since most of you realize I just popped up on this forum a few months ago. I have been a working musician, some times sound man, since 1980(*edit) ( I was 15 then) all part time (although I did have a brief encounter with mild fame in the mid 80s) and have done thousands of show mostly on stage but a lot of them behind boards that others owned.

In all those years I was very competent at making a system sound good, in spite of the fact I really had no idea how or why things worked the way they did. I had some good skills that mattered like setting gains correctly, good ear for the mix and the ability to name a feedback frequency as soon as I heard it.  A skill I seem to have since lost much to my dismay.

Almost all my real knowledgs has been gained in the last year first watching youtube vids on sound and then once I discovered this forum, you guys have pretty much been my sole source of info.

I just got into the rental business last October with kind of a "let's see what happens" ad on Craigslist and only the $3900 worth of equipment I was using for my band at the time. all of it less than a year old. I got paid $60.00. I charged them $50 but the band decided to give me an equal cut for the night.

In spite of a successful show it was all too apparent that I did not have the rig I needed to be renting myself out. So the credit card came out and I started buying gear like crazy, upgrading what ever seemed like the weakest link after each show and also getting necessary stuff like test equipment, plenty of extra cables, DIs, etc.   First purchase after that show was another powered sub, a new amp for my tops and a digital mixer. Total cost - $3400, almost what I had into it to date. Tim's post was spot on in that case.

The calls started coming in fairly regularly and I was making purchases either before each show to get something I was going to need or afterwards to upgrade something that maybe wasn't cutting it. Tried to focus on the weakest link first, for example the monitor system that worked fine for my band wasn't cutting it for others so I replaced the entire thing and put mine in the basement as a permanent install for band practice.

And of course after each major purchase, I would mistakenly think I was done buying stuff for awhile and then something would happen and I'd realize I needed something else. At least my band keeps getting better and better stuff to work with.

Was also able to borrow some stuff. 

Now it's April and I have roughly $13,500 worth of equipment (almost  double what I had just 4 months ago), a hell of lot more knowledge, and the realization that a lot of what I bought along the way I'm probably going to end up selling off for a loss within the next 6 months, mostly all the cheap equipment( like crap mic stands) I own that seemed like such a bargain at the time.   And if I was starting from scratch today, I could put together a much better system for $13K than I currently own.

Knowing that I need to buy better tops for larger venues more than I need to replace those power amps, I have reached out to a couple of other providers in the area to see what they are willing to cross rent should this situation arise again.  I currently do have work, just did a gig last Saturday for $250 and have another lined up for tonight, so I'm going to concentrate on trying to pay off some of what I have now with the full intention of continuing to step up my game again in a few months. 

I do believe long term it's better to acquire the equipment people want to rent than to try and find clients for the equipment you currently have. Ultimately I'll always be doing a little bit of both until I reach a level that I'm comfortable staying at. I plan on retiring in 5 years and would like this to be a least 25% of my retirement income.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 10:02:05 am by Scott Olewiler »
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Steve M Smith

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Re: Brand name cost me gigs
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2014, 08:58:05 am »

This has been some great discussion

There has been - but I must apologise for turning your thread into a Peavey appreciation society at one point!

I have been a working musician, some times sound man, since 1981 ( I was 15 then) all part time (although I did have a brief encounter with mild fame in the mid 80s) and have done thousands of show mostly on stage but a lot of them behind boards that others owned.

Apart from any encounter with mild fame, my experience is similar to yours.  I am a regularly gigging musician who started in live sound in the mid 1980s always using other people's equipment. If my mathematics is correct, I'm two years older than you (1964). I am just getting back into live sound after a few quiet years.

I found this forum last year when I realised that I had been volunteered to work the sound for a friend's band at a venue which had recently installed a digital desk.

There was a lot of helpful information both here and on YouTube videos as you have found.

There are many very knowledgeable people here who are happy to give advice.


Steve.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 09:03:06 am by Steve M Smith »
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: Brand name cost me gigs
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2014, 10:01:30 am »

If my mathematics is correct, I'm two years older than you (1964). I am just getting back into live sound after a few quiet years.


Oops, my math is bad. It was actually 1980, later that year I turned 16. ( I know how old I was, just miscalculated the year.)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 07:55:08 am by Scott Olewiler »
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Re: Brand name cost me gigs
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2014, 10:01:30 am »


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