ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: Summed Bass, Puzzling!  (Read 8720 times)

Canute J. Chiverton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« on: April 05, 2014, 01:15:48 PM »

I am puzzled somewhat by a recent occurrence. I was doing a Karaoke Show last night. Equipment being used was all Sources connected to DJ Mixer .....whose main outputs went to Allen & Heath ZED 12FX Live Mixer...whose ouputs went to DBX 166 to DBX 1231 EQ to Bose Controller/Controller (Settings..two way with summed Bass) to Crown Amp for Bose 802s tops (Mids & Highs) & Crown amp for Single 18" Summed Bass.

Here is what puzzles me, Up to the point the Stereo Signals enters the Crossover, they are supposed to be separate so all controls Left and Right should work independently and thus change Signal Volume. When I use the Master Left and Right from the Allen & Heath to add Signal Output The Tops/Bose 802s Left and Right respond but only the Left side when pushed up or pulled down will affect the Summed Bass. Why is it then that when I push up  or pull down the right side of the A&H Outputs that the Bass is hardly affected, It is almost non existent. I would think that the Crossover gets Bass Frequencies before they are summed. Any explanation to this phenomenon? Hopefully I have explained in detail.

Second, The Bass amp is a Crown XTi 4000, should I send both L & R Signals to it from the Xover and set the amp to Sum them to one bridged side? Can the Amp do that?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 01:22:24 PM by Canute J. Chiverton »
Logged

Canute J. Chiverton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2014, 01:51:24 PM »

I am puzzled somewhat by a recent occurrence. I was doing a Karaoke Show last night. Equipment being used was all Sources connected to DJ Mixer .....whose main outputs went to Allen & Heath ZED 12FX Live Mixer...whose ouputs went to DBX 166 to DBX 1231 EQ to Bose Controller/Controller (Settings..two way with summed Bass) to Crown Amp for Bose 802s tops (Mids & Highs) & Crown amp for Single 18" Summed Bass.

BTW Here is the Rig In question:This is for Two way Applications or to be added to another Rack I have when I do Three way Configurations.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 01:57:11 PM by Canute J. Chiverton »
Logged

Canute J. Chiverton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2014, 12:37:03 PM »

Maybe the thread should be moved to the Live Sound Board since most DJs don't use Live Mixers and many of those who do Karaoke only use those Tiny Mic Mixers! Mods, is it possible to move the Thread to another appropriate Forum?
Logged

Paul G. OBrien

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2014, 09:46:59 PM »

The cynic in me reads "Bose Controller" and immediately thinks... well there's your problem, but then I look at the whole gear list and besides thinking that you have waaaaaaaaaaaaay to many pieces in the signal chain it becomes obvious that if you have one miswired interconnect that will put the signal out of polarity with the other channel and mono sources like bass will cancel instead of sum in the Bose controller.
Logged

Canute J. Chiverton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2014, 10:14:12 PM »

The cynic in me reads "Bose Controller" and immediately thinks... well there's your problem, but then I look at the whole gear list and besides thinking that you have waaaaaaaaaaaaay to many pieces in the signal chain it becomes obvious that if you have one miswired interconnect that will put the signal out of polarity with the other channel and mono sources like bass will cancel instead of sum in the Bose controller.
It works well when it is not summed and two subs, left and right are deployed. Those units are there because sometimes Small Bands use this Rig.Minus the DJ stuff on the Right Rack/Station
Logged

Paul G. OBrien

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2014, 10:39:09 PM »

It works well when it is not summed and two subs, left and right are deployed. Those units are there because sometimes Small Bands use this Rig.Minus the DJ stuff on the Right Rack/Station

So as I suggested above check each interconnect to make sure the hot and cold signal wires aren't switched inside a connector somewhere.
Logged

Canute J. Chiverton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2014, 11:10:12 PM »

So as I suggested above check each interconnect to make sure the hot and cold signal wires aren't switched inside a connector somewhere.
I will do that and report back, I just find it weird that it responds this way.  If I have it in stereo any right or left channel Fader in the Chain will affect the Level of bass from the corresponding side all the way to the Bass speaker.  I would think that by the very nature of the Controller/Xover getting a Stereo feed in that it will then sum both left and right Bass frequencies from thereon.  I will test what you advised and report back.

Logged

Mac Kerr

  • Old enough to know better
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7057
  • Audio Plumber
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2014, 11:11:29 PM »

I will do that and report back, I just find it weird that it responds this way.  If I have it in stereo any right or left channel Fader in the Chain will affect the Level of bass from the corresponding side all the way to the Bass speaker.  I would think that by the very nature of the Controller/Xover getting a Stereo feed in that it will then sum both left and right Bass frequencies from thereon.  I will test what you advised and report back.

If turning down either the left or the right channel makes the bass increase, you have a cable with reversed polarity.

Mac
Logged

Canute J. Chiverton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2014, 12:56:20 AM »

If turning down either the left or the right channel makes the bass increase, you have a cable with reversed polarity.

Mac
Mac, First thanks for moving the Thread. Again this is what happens.
Increasing the Volume (Master Faders) on the Live Mixer......left Channel going up = Increase in Volume in Left Tops and Summed Base.
Right Channel going up = Increase in volume in Right Tops only, not in Summed Bass.
If I turn down the Left Master Fader completely,  it will take all the Summed Bass with it! Only right tops will remain!
Logged

Geoff Doane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 886
  • Halifax, NS
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2014, 08:07:38 AM »


Increasing the Volume (Master Faders) on the Live Mixer......left Channel going up = Increase in Volume in Left Tops and Summed Base.
Right Channel going up = Increase in volume in Right Tops only, not in Summed Bass.
If I turn down the Left Master Fader completely,  it will take all the Summed Bass with it! Only right tops will remain!

It seems obvious to me that your "summed bass" is really just the left channel bass.  I tried, without success, to find a flow diagram for the "Bose controller", but the only thing that showed up was some DSP device they now have.  I can't tell for sure, but it doesn't look like the silver thing above the Crown amps in your picture.

I would carefully go over your controller settings/patching to confirm that it is operating as intended.

GTD
Logged

Canute J. Chiverton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2014, 09:30:42 AM »

It seems obvious to me that your "summed bass" is really just the left channel bass.  I tried, without success, to find a flow diagram for the "Bose controller", but the only thing that showed up was some DSP device they now have.  I can't tell for sure, but it doesn't look like the silver thing above the Crown amps in your picture.

I would carefully go over your controller settings/patching to confirm that it is operating as intended.

GTD
As advised before,  I will check every cable and each setting on every piece in the chain and let you all know the outcome! I am not sure if there is a Flow Chart in the Bose Manual.  If there is one, I will post it first.  You were correct, the Silver thing is the Bose Controller/Xover. (They like to put fancy names on stuff to charge you more....just like Starbucks!!)
Logged

Canute J. Chiverton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2014, 02:31:25 PM »

OK I just completed a thorough Continuity Test on ALL my signal cables and routing in my Rack and I believe I have found the problem. All the Cables including the Store bought ones are fine, they passed. I had a Left and Right output/input mixed up (Operator Error...Guilty).  I recently rewired something in the rack and mistakenly plugged in a signal cable in the wrong Input. It was not that easy to find since I employ a Harnessing method with breakouts but the ends are all marked and color coded.
The real test will be tonight. I am expecting to get some bass response from both output channels from my Live Mixer. I will report back on final outcome by tomorrow.
Logged

Taylor Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 850
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2014, 03:05:21 PM »

At least it was an easy fix (even if it did come at the expense of a fair bit of egg on face). Hopefully all i well and everything performs as intended.
Logged
There are two ways to do anything:
1) Do it right
2) Do it over until you do it right

Steve Oldridge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1177
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2014, 05:51:28 PM »

OK I just completed a thorough Continuity Test on ALL my signal cables and routing in my Rack and I believe I have found the problem.

I guess the real lesson learnt is to test the setup and ensure it's working BEFORE it hits the road. Sure, sh*t happens on the road. Stuff breaks, but if you KNEW it worked before it left....

I went thru a similar situation a couple of weeks ago, with our band PA (not mine) where the owner/band leader had pinked the room OK, but when we did (a late) sound check, there was nothing coming from the PA but subs.
Turned out - after much "chicken mode" troubleshooting - that he had somehow muted the Mid and High outputs (subs were OK) on the front panel on the DRPA+ during the RTA process.  Apparently, pink noise generator bypasses those mutes.
It's a personal pet peeve (stems from being a long-time IT guy) when folks take a PA system to a job, then want to re-configure/re-wire, "let's double the subs tonight!",  10 mins before the band plays. Errr, no... it's asking for trouble.

Hope it all works well, nothing more frustrating than stuff not working at an event!
Logged

Bill McIntosh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 374
  • Louisville KY
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2014, 07:01:18 PM »

I guess the real lesson learnt is to test the setup and ensure it's working BEFORE it hits the road.

It's a personal pet peeve (stems from being a long-time IT guy) when folks take a PA system to a job, then want to re-configure/re-wire, "let's double the subs tonight!",  10 mins before the band plays. Errr, no... it's asking for trouble.

+1

I got a dose of that (second-hand, fortunately).  Trainer friend of mine is ready to present a new sales tool to a ballroom with ~800 sales managers, exec VPs, and president.  Decides to change his screen resolution at the last minute and...viola!  His laptop is sending 20% wider than the projectors will handle.  I got to watch a very amusing song and dance that started out "well, over HERE if you could see it, would be the controls for..." :o

Lesson:  you can EXPECT only what you INSPECT.   8)
Logged
Opinions are like belly buttons.  Everybody has one, but not all are suitable for public display.

Canute J. Chiverton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2014, 01:40:02 AM »

So as I suggested above check each interconnect to make sure the hot and cold signal wires aren't switched inside a connector somewhere.
Paul and the other lads, I want to thank you all for the suggestions. As posted yesterday the Culprit was a mixed signal cable left output from EQ going to right input of Bose controller/Xover. I was the Villain who messed up. The sound was sweet tonight, natural Mids and Highs and nice tight bass. I now have satisfaction in knowing that all my cables are up to snuff since I tested them all for shorts and continuity!.  Once again thank you very much.   These Forums are a priceless resource!
Logged

Steve M Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3380
  • Isle of Wight - England
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2014, 04:34:41 AM »

Decides to change his screen resolution at the last minute and...viola!

And his oversize violin?!!


Steve.
Logged

Geoff Doane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 886
  • Halifax, NS
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2014, 09:01:40 AM »

And his oversize violin?!!


Steve.

Yeah, I was going to say that a viola is about 20% bigger than a violin (and burns about 20%.....).

Geoff (sometimes violist)
Logged

Canute J. Chiverton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2014, 10:32:14 AM »

The problem with this was that last week nobody but me noticed. Two tops were still playing and the sub was also playing however I felt the naturalness and thump was not all there. We need to send the Audience to PA School so that they know to expect the best sound, hahaha.
I once did an experiment where I turned off the left side of my PA to see how long it would take anyone to inform me that my left speaker was not playing. After a long wait with no success I turned it back on! Those folks were not even drunk as yet! Or maybe they were and could care less. SMH
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Summed Bass, Puzzling!
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2014, 10:32:14 AM »


Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.04 seconds with 19 queries.