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Author Topic: Church Sound System  (Read 37770 times)

Brad Weber

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2014, 04:49:14 PM »

Our unmanned mixer is a Eurodesk SX3242FX that was recently donated and we have 12 mic's hooked to it that don't have off switches (mostly in the choir stand).
You always want to turn down or even better mute any microphones that aren't actually in use at the time.  You could be losing 10dB of gain before feedback simply due to having all the mics open when you talk.
 
If it is too difficult for someone to turn down or mute all the choir mics individually then maybe all the choir mic inputs to the mixer could all be assigned to a subgroup and then you could adjust the subgroup fader to control the overall choir level, turning the related subgroup fader all the way down whenever the choir is not signing.
 
We also have a really good digital wireless mic, but again, no one really wants to use it because they turn the gain down so low I have to eat it to get it to respond the way I want.
What kind of microphone do you use with the wireless?  If you used it with a headset style mic that gets the microphone closer to your mouth then you may be able to get significantly greater gain before feedback.
 
So we have a Eurodesk SX3242FX with 4 speakers total, two large JBL's (I have no idea what the model numbers are because they're embedded up in the front wall) hooked to the mixer main outputs in the front of the sanctuary and two faithful BOSE 802E with active equalizer (I love those little dudes) in the rear facing toward me that are hooked like monitors coming out of AUX SND 1 & 2. The BOSE in the rear are powered by an old Peavey 2600 (stereo) but the two JBL's in the front are wired in parallel and powered by a Peavey 3000 mono amp. So we're really only using one main output from the mixer.
If any mics are run to the Bose speakers then that could also be adding to the problem.
 
I read where a 31 band equalizer would best eliminate the feedback without degrading the tone quality as much but these feedback destroyers look like a good investment also.
An equalizer could certainly help and might even provide other benefits but in terms of feedback both it and 'feedback destroyers' are often more band-aids rather than addressing the underlying problem.  You might have to consider them as last steps but probably only after addressing some of the other issues.
 
One of the musicians recommended a compressor to raise my soft speaking and reduce the volume when I'm closing since I generally get pretty worked up by the closing of my sermon.
Compressing the peak levels and then adding make-up gain to raise the softer levels could actually make things worse in regard to feedback.
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Cosmo

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2014, 07:12:30 PM »


Hello,

I am the new pastor at a baptist Church and really need advice for economically improving our sound performance.

If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.

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If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer.  Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away.  - H.D. Thoreau

John Halliburton

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 07:37:41 PM »

If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.

Yeah, but us sinners get it done.

Chuck,

Good advice given so far.  I agree that the rear speakers aiming back at the pulpit should go. 

You should be using an earworn type lav mic like stage performers use-see if one can be hooked up with the one "good" wireless mic you say you have.  If you're developing nodules on your vocal cords, getting a decent mic close to  your mouth is your best defense against more damage-as someone else in the thread posted, "the loudest sound at the microphone wins"  You need to use a setup that keeps your voice as the loudest sound at your mic.  Period.

You need someone at the mixer.  Find someone who knows what they're doing.  A dozen open mics, a band, a preacher, and no eq or processing to help manage feedback is a recipe for disaster, on a Behringer mixer with nobody at the helm,  and you're in the middle of it.

Pictures of the install and pulpit, with more details like brand and model of the wireless mic you're not using, the same with the podium mic, etc. will help a lot with getting some help.

Best regards,

John
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Corey Scogin

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 11:53:46 PM »

If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.

"you church people"?  Seriously?  If you're not going to offer any help, please don't try to start a fire.  I would argue that this topic is not necessarily unique to churches but I agree that it may better suit the H.O.W. forum.  That is for the moderators to decide.
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Chuck Survine

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2014, 12:03:22 AM »

I get the gist, instead of throwing money at this, we need to find someone to run the mixer. I think that's good advice and I'll pray the Lord blesses us with one. Until then maybe I can get one of the musicians to go back and mute the unused mics.

All the wired mic's I believe are Shure SH58 and the wireless is a Sennheiser XSW 35.

I would love to get rid of the huge JBL's and move the Bose to the front in their place. I know what the Bose can do from when my father pastored the Church. Back then, they were the only speakers we had with a single Yamaha mixer/amplifier and the system worked tons better than it does with all this stuff the pastor between us put in. I started preaching at this church and the mics were sensitive yet they weren't too loud for our small sanctuary.

The pastor between us was more of a singer. He went and hired professional musicians to fill out "the band" and the folks say "loud" was the only setting the PA had.

As for hearing myself, I forgot to mention I do most of my preaching pacing the isle of the sanctuary. I'm a pacer that rarely stands in the pulpit when preaching but I do use the pulpit mic for pastoral emphasis which is when I would prefer to speak softly. I also dart back up to the pulpit periodically to check my notes. Perhaps with a lapel mic I can put my notes in my bible and take them with me on my pace since I would have both hands free to work them.

I have pictures of the sanctuary but don't see how to post them...
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2014, 08:35:26 AM »

If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.
And us Church people sometimes condescend to help you sinners too.   Thanks for your helpful contribution to this thread.  ::)
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2014, 08:50:29 AM »

I get the gist, instead of throwing money at this, we need to find someone to run the mixer. I think that's good advice and I'll pray the Lord blesses us with one. Until then maybe I can get one of the musicians to go back and mute the unused mics.

All the wired mic's I believe are Shure SH58 and the wireless is a Sennheiser XSW 35.

I would love to get rid of the huge JBL's and move the Bose to the front in their place. I know what the Bose can do from when my father pastored the Church. Back then, they were the only speakers we had with a single Yamaha mixer/amplifier and the system worked tons better than it does with all this stuff the pastor between us put in. I started preaching at this church and the mics were sensitive yet they weren't too loud for our small sanctuary.

The pastor between us was more of a singer. He went and hired professional musicians to fill out "the band" and the folks say "loud" was the only setting the PA had.

As for hearing myself, I forgot to mention I do most of my preaching pacing the isle of the sanctuary. I'm a pacer that rarely stands in the pulpit when preaching but I do use the pulpit mic for pastoral emphasis which is when I would prefer to speak softly. I also dart back up to the pulpit periodically to check my notes. Perhaps with a lapel mic I can put my notes in my bible and take them with me on my pace since I would have both hands free to work them.

I have pictures of the sanctuary but don't see how to post them...
Hi Chuck.  Churches look very different from each other, and a lot of messes have been caused by a new party coming in and not understanding the church's ethos - an AV install company, a new music person, a new pastor, etc.  While change is a part of life and churches must continually adapt to serve the needs of their congregation and embrace young people, doing this with a hammer as your previous pastor seems to have done is probably not the best course.

You've gotten some great advice here.  A few thoughts:

- As others have said, gain before feedback is a physics principle related to the relative distance between the mic and the source vs the distance between the mic and the speaker.  Multiple mics that are on with no source - i.e. the band mics, degrade the gain before feedback with no benefit whatsoever, so yes, a sound operator - even one who simply operates the on/off buttons on those mics would make a difference.

- You have a preferred style of hearing yourself as you speak, which comes with challenges and benefits.  The greatest ability for the sound system to reinforce your voice comes from moving the mic element as close as practical to your mouth - either with a discreet headset mic, or a hand-held mic.  Both of those have pros and cons.  A discreet headset mic like a Countryman E6 is visually unobtrusive and leaves your hands free, however it is stuck to your face, and you can't get away from it if you need to cough.  A handheld mic will likely have the best sound quality and freedom for you to use it as a tool, however it requires using a hand.

- Bose 802 speakers are OK, but not great.  JBL speakers range from pretty terrible to fantastic quality.  Setup and deployment is everything.  Finding someone in your area who could come in and consult with you to better understand your needs and talk realistically about what you can achieve may make a significant difference; possibly with little to no new equipment.
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2014, 08:53:26 AM »

And us Church people sometimes condescend to help you sinners too.   Thanks for your helpful contribution to this thread.  ::)

Entirely agree, I was outraged when I read that post but he doesn't know any better. FYI some churches put out better produced shows then these 'sinners' you speak of...

My advice would be to find out if anyone here is close to you and could possible come out and have a look at what is going on, I know I  would do it at the drop of a hat for any local church around here and there are a few good people out there, otherwise any money spent getting professional advice is money well spent, don't throw money at solutions if you do not understand what you are doing.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2014, 08:59:57 AM »

I would love to get rid of the huge JBL's and move the Bose to the front in their place. I know what the Bose can do from when my father pastored the Church. Back then, they were the only speakers we had with a single Yamaha mixer/amplifier and the system worked tons better than it does with all this stuff the pastor between us put in. I started preaching at this church and the mics were sensitive yet they weren't too loud for our small sanctuary.
Just keep in mind that with any speakers it is not just the speaker but how it is located, aimed, tuned, etc. that determines the results.  Simply sticking any particular brand or model of speaker in a space does not guarantee good results no matter how good or bad the speaker.
 
As far as how things were, consider what might be different.  Did your Father go out in the congregation as you do, did you have speakers on the rear wall, did you have choir mics and so on?  Don't expect the same results as you recall unless everything is the same.

As for hearing myself, I forgot to mention I do most of my preaching pacing the isle of the sanctuary. I'm a pacer that rarely stands in the pulpit when preaching but I do use the pulpit mic for pastoral emphasis which is when I would prefer to speak softly. I also dart back up to the pulpit periodically to check my notes. Perhaps with a lapel mic I can put my notes in my bible and take them with me on my pace since I would have both hands free to work them.
I see two potential factors there likely adding to your problem.  One is having your microphone out in the coverage of the main speakers.  If you want to do that without feedback you may need to be open to using a headset style microphone.  The other is your potentially being picked up by both a lapel/lav microphone and the pulpit mic.  Another place where you'd want someone to turn down or mute one of the mics.
 
To be blunt, the causes of your issues with the sound system appear to greatly relate to the system operation and use.  Directly addressing those is likely to be more effective than adding other equipment.
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Jeff Foster

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Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2014, 11:43:28 AM »

If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.

And us Church people sometimes condescend to help you sinners too.   Thanks for your helpful contribution to this thread.  ::)

"you church people"?  Seriously?  If you're not going to offer any help, please don't try to start a fire.  I would argue that this topic is not necessarily unique to churches but I agree that it may better suit the H.O.W. forum.  That is for the moderators to decide.

Entirely agree, I was outraged when I read that post but he doesn't know any better. FYI some churches put out better produced shows then these 'sinners' you speak of...

Wow.  People get worked up over stuff very quickly.  I didn't read any offense in that first comment and I'm one of those "Church people".  I thought it was kind of funny.  I guess it just shows that you can't really read emotions in printed text.

As to the original post, I agree with all the points that have been made, but would like to add something.  You might do well to ask nearby churches if they have a good sound person on staff.  If so, see if they might be willing to come in and help correct some of the issues with your system.  We "church people" often enjoy helping others like that, though you may want to offer a free meal or something similar out of courtesy.  There are a lot of churches with very good sound techs as volunteers or even on staff.  I know some church sound guys that are every bit as good as the sound guys here in the "sinners" forum.  Heck, that's why some of us hang out here too.
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Jeff Foster
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Church Sound System
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2014, 11:43:28 AM »


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