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Author Topic: Phase align subs to mains  (Read 21841 times)

Franz Francis

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Re: Phase align subs to mains
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2014, 12:32:41 pm »

Iíve had the experience where the phase alignment done in the DSP with delay look good in Smaart but did not sound pleasing to the ear, I had to physically move the subs to do the alignment which also turned out to look good in Smaart but sound way better to my ears.
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Raimonds.Skuruls

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Re: Phase align subs to mains
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2014, 09:09:17 am »

... If both cars cross the finish line at the same time (amplifying each other) but one is a lap behind,
how do you see that on measurement software?

... The phase of the signal coming out of a speaker is affected by crossover design, box design, driver
selection, and electronic treatment. The idea is to use the electronic treatment to correct the errors
induced by all the other influences.
Mac

But simply "being physically close" DOES NOT mean that they are in phase.
...  They all have an effect on the actual arrival time.  Steeper slopes cause more "delay".
...Just the simple action of putting a low pass filter on the subs will throw their "arrival time"
off-even if they are sitting right next to the mains.

Measurements can give you answers, but you have to know what questions you are asking.
The best measurement system can only suggest the results of choices you have made. Experience tells you
what those choices might be.
...If you find yourself working in a circle and redoing over and over what you already changed, odds are
you have stumbled against something that can't be fixed.
Also, another piece of negative information is that you must be able to get consistent measurements
before you can make consistent predictions based on the measurements.

Not only a PA needs alignment.
John asks me to help with his Quested V3110 studio monitors.
The results you can see in the next topic
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,148306.msg1368687.html#msg1368687

BR,
Raimonds
http://aplaudio.com
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Phase align subs to mains
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2014, 05:31:13 pm »


http://timobeckmangeluid.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/eqin-a-system/

Great article Timo. Nice explanation all the way through. I'd never thought about working on the system with an inverted trace of the processors output visible. It sure makes calculating filter widths a lot easier!

Here's a question for you though: What was the physical setup here? I notice you have a wonderfully flat coherence trace in the region of interest in all your measurements (>= 95% I'd say). I presume this wasn't an "in-the-trenches" (on-site) thing, but in somewhat "lab conditions"?

One of the challenges in the real world, where lampies love to drive cherry pickers around at the moment you wan't to tune the system, is getting solid coherence on your measurements. Obviously we'd all love to work in a nice quiet room. If only gigs were like that :-). Do the 2 options for Mag Averaging have any effect on the coherence math?

Thanks,

Chris
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Riedel Communications

Timo Beckman

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Re: Phase align subs to mains
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2014, 06:02:44 am »

Great article Timo. Nice explanation all the way through. I'd never thought about working on the system with an inverted trace of the processors output visible. It sure makes calculating filter widths a lot easier!
Here's a question for you though: What was the physical setup here? I notice you have a wonderfully flat coherence trace in the region of interest in all your measurements (>= 95% I'd say). I presume this wasn't an "in-the-trenches" (on-site) thing, but in somewhat "lab conditions"?

Thanks,
Chris

Glad you liked it. The mic's were close to the D.U.T. I try to get a semi flat response first (and if needed a similar phase response between products so i can use all together if needed).
After that's done and the speaker is used on a install/production i tune it to get a response that's both technical ok but more important: does it still sound musical.

To achieve this means i have to use a lot of mic positions and take an avarage of those positions which is coherence weighted (a option in smaart when doing averages). I still check al traces together solo on screen against the average and overlay an inverted processor trace for eq points in a room. Doing this let's you see trends in a room and with a live average on screen while doing eq points you can see if the eq points are having the effect you want.

If there's little effect with the eq points check out what maybe the cause of that. Before eq'ing a system it might also be a "cool" thing to check the splay angles of an array position of loudspeakers etc.

Eq'ing is just a small part of the outcome of a system. First verify if all speakers are working correctly (polarity connected to the right amp etc.) verify positioning and if not act accordingly time align/adjust gains on all delay's and phase align acoustic x-overs in array's. There's a lot more that can be done before you do eq's.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 06:04:52 am by Timo Beckman »
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Timo Beckman

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Re: Phase align subs to mains
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2014, 06:43:02 am »

Glad you liked it. Sorry for the late response i did not see it because the topic being moved. The mic's were close to the D.U.T. I try to get a semi flat response first (and if needed a similar phase response between products so i can use all together if needed).
After that's done and the speaker is used on a install/production i tune it to get a response that's both technical ok but more important: does it still sound musical.

To achieve this means i have to use a lot of mic positions and take an avarage of those positions which is coherence weighted (a option in smaart when doing averages). I still check al traces together solo on screen against the average and overlay an inverted processor trace for eq points in a room. Doing this let's you see trends in a room and with a live average on screen while doing eq points you can see if the eq points are having the effect you want.

If there's little effect with the eq points check out what maybe the cause of that. Before eq'ing a system it might also be a "cool" thing to check the splay angles of an array position of loudspeakers etc.

Eq'ing is just a small part of the outcome of a system. First verify if all speakers are working correctly (polarity connected to the right amp etc.) verify positioning and if not act accordingly time align/adjust gains on all delay's and phase align acoustic x-overs in array's. There's a lot more that can be done before you do eq's.
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