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Author Topic: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?  (Read 12093 times)

Lee Richard

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Re: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2014, 06:52:04 pm »

While you could certainly use a X32 RACK as a matrix system processor, I would not consider it an equal to the Lab Gruppen/Lake processors.  That extends to both the processing and to features such as AES and Dante I/O.
 
I believe the X32 RACK's dedicated output processing is limited to an 8 band EQ and a compressor/expander which can be selected for peak or RMS response and set for a 100:1 ratio (no infinite ratio so not really a true limiter, but close).  Delay is available on the inputs but not on the outputs.  If you wanted any other processing on the outputs such as delay, a GEQ or a second limiter to provide both RMS and peak limiting then you'd need to insert one of the X32's 8 stereo effects engines or an external processor.

There is delay on the outputs, available in the Analog out tab of the routing section.

Additionally, using the Dual GEQ's in the FX engines, you have can have up to 16 GEQ's. The Precision limiter isn't a speaker limiter but more of a Mastering limiter taken from Sony's Oxford Limiter plugin.
The Matrix outputs do indeed allow for crossover filters:
Butterworth 6dB, 12dB, 18db, 24dB
Bessel 12dB, 24dB
Linkwitz–Riley 12dB, 24dB

Brad Weber

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Re: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2014, 10:05:58 am »

There is delay on the outputs, available in the Analog out tab of the routing section.

Additionally, using the Dual GEQ's in the FX engines, you have can have up to 16 GEQ's. The Precision limiter isn't a speaker limiter but more of a Mastering limiter taken from Sony's Oxford Limiter plugin.
The Matrix outputs do indeed allow for crossover filters:
Butterworth 6dB, 12dB, 18db, 24dB
Bessel 12dB, 24dB
Linkwitz–Riley 12dB, 24dB
Interesting as the single line diagram in the X32 manual online (Page 65 of http://www.behringer.com/assets/X32_M_EN.pdf) shows delay on the inputs but not the outputs other than the Monitor outputs, I guess they need to correct or update that diagram.
 
The OP was talking about using the X32 RACK as an 8x8 processor so 8 GEQs for the outputs would seem to be the most needed in that application.
 
I realize that the Precision Limiter is not really a speaker limiter and that was part of my point, a Precision Limiter being inserted in the output path in conjunction with the output compressor set for a 100:1 ratio seems to be the closest a X32 can come to providing both peak and RMS output limiting as in the Lake processors.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2014, 11:27:30 am »

Wondering if anyone has put the X32, 3 space rack version into service as basically a 8 x 8 insert device for console outputs.

I used to carry an 8x8 DLP for touring to patch across my L R bus, Sub, F Fill, Balcony, Lav Group, etc?

For the $1050 price point, the X32 rack has 8 in 16 out and ipad control. Seems like it could do a similar job as 2 LabGruppen LM44 at 1/6th the price.

Has anybody tried it in this kind of application?

Obviously the x32 couldn't do the crossover functions, And the Lake software is designed exactly for this application. And the user control is much better but I'm really curious to see if anyone has used it as basically patchable inserts for another console.  IE:Remote controllable graphs and output delays.

If a system engineer or band engineer needs a Lake, then the answer is NO, it will not be accepted, period.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Brian Jojade

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Re: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2014, 01:36:27 pm »

If a system engineer or band engineer needs a Lake, then the answer is NO, it will not be accepted, period.

Meaning if a Lake is specified in a rider, and you provide an X32, they aren't going to be happy.  Could you get it to provide a majority of the functions?  That answer is yes.  Will it do everything exactly the same?  Obviously no, but depending on the budget you're dealing with, the X32 is a pretty flexible piece of gear.

My base systems now are X32 racks directly to amplifiers.  No processing in between.  I used to use DriveRacks in everything, but for the cost and space savings, the added value of the DriveRack was no longer there.
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Brian Jojade

J Brett

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Re: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2014, 06:53:43 pm »

I'm basically doing the same at my venue. I've have a meyer line array coming which all processing will be handled by a Meyer Galileo. All my outfills, subs and various delays are currently handled by two Peavey Nion N6's. I hate the user interface on them, so I'm taking them out. All my EQ, crossover etc work will be handled by the Galileo and the X32 Rack will take care of limiting.

It's also great for me as we have everything from giant concerts to very simple coorporate events with one microphone and house music. On those easy shows, a few simple patches and grab the IPAD. No console to setup and I don't  have to hear the client complain about a "ugly" console. 
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Josh Millward

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Re: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2014, 07:25:47 pm »

All my outfills, subs and various delays are currently handled by two Peavey Nion N6's. I hate the user interface on them, so I'm taking them out.

If you don't like the user interface on the NIONs that much, why don't you change it to something you can live with. This is the real power of the MediaMatrix NION platform: flexibility.

By the way, did you know that as of the release of NWare 1.7.0 you can create user interface pages for any web browser on any platform to access and exert control over the system?

That means any iPad, Android device, computer, or anything that uses a web browser that supports at minimum HTML5 and is connected to your network, can have a user interface to the NIONs.

Have fun out there!  ;)
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Josh Millward
Danley Sound Labs

Arthur Skudra

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Re: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2014, 08:57:45 pm »

I'm basically doing the same at my venue. I've have a meyer line array coming which all processing will be handled by a Meyer Galileo. All my outfills, subs and various delays are currently handled by two Peavey Nion N6's. I hate the user interface on them, so I'm taking them out. All my EQ, crossover etc work will be handled by the Galileo and the X32 Rack will take care of limiting.
Maybe it's just me, but seriously with all the money spent on a Meyer system, I'm not sure I'd trust an inexpensive mixing console or cheap $1000 DSP to perform the task of your primary system DSP, router and limiter, whether it's Behringer or any other manufacturer.  I would prefer something that will work flawlessly for at least 10 years, sound excellent, protect the system from idiots, and give me the flexibility I need to address any kind of configuration necessary to perform the job.  I program all audio DSP platforms out there, and the Nion is probably one of the most flexible out there in regards to designing a custom user interface, not to mention automixing capabilities for smaller events.  Maybe you had a programmer that didn't do a good enough job?  Silly to throw the baby out with the bathwater!  Hire a *real* programmer for the day, I'm sure you'll be happier with the result!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 09:04:11 pm by Arthur Skudra »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2014, 09:42:43 pm »

Meaning if a Lake is specified in a rider, and you provide an X32, they aren't going to be happy.  Could you get it to provide a majority of the functions?  That answer is yes.  Will it do everything exactly the same?  Obviously no, but depending on the budget you're dealing with, the X32 is a pretty flexible piece of gear.

My base systems now are X32 racks directly to amplifiers.  No processing in between.  I used to use DriveRacks in everything, but for the cost and space savings, the added value of the DriveRack was no longer there.

Our outlook is typically very similar, but this time we disagree.

I think the key word in the subject line is "replacement".  In no way is an X32 rack a replacement for a Lake processor.  As Mac points out, the secret sauce in the box is the MESA filter section.  Without those the Lake isn't especially different from other mid & upscale DSP.  And if all one needs are the lesser capabilities there are other DSP units that will be more confidence inspiring among the BEs and production managers that approve the services of sound providers.

Otherwise this post belongs in the Lounge...
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

J Brett

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Re: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2014, 09:56:47 pm »

Maybe it's just me, but seriously with all the money spent on a Meyer system, I'm not sure I'd trust an inexpensive mixing console or cheap $1000 DSP to perform the task of your primary system DSP, router and limiter, whether it's Behringer or any other manufacturer.  I would prefer something that will work flawlessly for at least 10 years, sound excellent, protect the system from idiots, and give me the flexibility I need to address any kind of configuration necessary to perform the job.  I program all audio DSP platforms out there, and the Nion is probably one of the most flexible out there in regards to designing a custom user interface, not to mention automixing capabilities for smaller events.  Maybe you had a programmer that didn't do a good enough job?  Silly to throw the baby out with the bathwater!  Hire a *real* programmer for the day, I'm sure you'll be happier with the result!

I was originally going to use the X32 for limiting on my non-meyer speakers, which are my outfills, noth, east, west delays and subs. I'm using the Meyer Galileo to handle everything else but it has no built in limiting considering all Meyer limiting is handled within the speaker DSP.

I've been digging around Nware for the last hour and I think I can make it all work together. My main dislike has been the GUI. I like to be able to pull up all processing on my phone during a concert to check limiting and volume. I've been doing that via VNC into the computer that runs the Nware software. Looks like I need to dig deeper into the software and do some reading. This was a original install and I've tweeked a few things but I come from a Lake, system architect, Galileo background.

I still might use the X32 Rack for days I've got 3-5 consoles out at FOH as a matrix mixer.

Thanks for the suggestions.
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Arthur Skudra

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Re: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2014, 10:21:05 pm »

Jason, get in touch with Josh Millward, who responded earlier in this thread.  He's an expert when it comes to Nion (he supports the platform as his job), and I'm sure he can give you some guidance on what can be done to improve what you have already.  Yes Nware can be a bit daunting at first, but once you realize its power and flexibility, I think you will be pretty impressed with what is possible with the system.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Behringer X32 Rack as Buget replacement for Lake 8x8 ?
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2014, 10:21:05 pm »


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