ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down

Author Topic: My first church install - suggestions are welcome...  (Read 8520 times)

Alexander B Larsson

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 35
My first church install - suggestions are welcome...
« on: February 22, 2014, 05:13:22 am »

Not sure if this belongs in "install" or "church" forum...

Anyway, having run PA on a hobby level for many years, I was asked to plan and do a church install.
This is the church in question:



More pics can be seen in the below link:
http://scaniacultura.se/Kyrkor/SodraAsumNyaTxt.html

It is about 28 m / 90 ft from pulpit to rear wall, perhaps 45-50 ft wide, has tile floor and brickwall/plaster walls and ceiling.

I have run my SOS PA there twice and it works well. That rig is 2 Community SLS920 on tripods along with 2 single 12 LF speakers. Powered by QSC PLX and processed through a Behringer DCX 2496.
That setups sounds surprisingly good in this enironment and retains good intelligibility all the way back. Tripods were symmetrically positioned about halfway between altar centre and side walls (in line with the big columns.) The tripods extended about 6ft up, with the 920s on top of that.

The cantor and priest commented how much better our "demo" sounded compared to some recent BOSE Line Array inställs in nearby churches.

My idea is to install an identical rig.
The SLS 920s would have to go wall mounted, the left one hanging with its lower edge between the "roof" of the pulpit and the "fundament" where the arcs from the ceiling domes meet. The right one of course in a mirrored position. The LF boxes would have to be sitting at the floor, next to the wall below the tops. A 16 channel console will be installed at the back of the room.

The PA should support preaching, cantor singing alone and with the choir, smaller concerts with choir, keybord, acoustic guitar, percussion (not drum kit), wind instruments etc. The music is hymns as well as more modern, soft to medium in intensity and SPL, no "Urban gospel" with drum kits and electric guitar etc.

So, what are your ideas? My two main concerns;
The cantor says their two "vergers" (lack of better translation) who today run the current, level only mixer into a dozen "clock radio" speakers are not interested in "technical stuff". Not a good indication...

"Gain Before Feedback" is the other potential problem. You will need to "work the mix" during service in a very different way than they do today.

I am worried I sell them a rig that perform at "Ferrari" level, but that is also as "unforgiving" as a Ferrari.
Example: This install will require muting of headset when someone enters the pulpit (that needs a fixed mike panned to the right.)
They will need to work the EQ for different inputs. They might need to adjust gain as well.

I do not live close, am not a part of the congregation etc and do not want to be supporting this install "permanently".

Your comments are very welcome!
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8778
  • Atlanta GA
Re: My first church install - suggestions are welcome...
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2014, 10:04:18 am »

To start with-do you have the proper licenses and permits to do this?  Low voltage contractors license-business license etc.

Do you have proper insurance for any damage to the building/people while doing the install?

If not you need to stop.

Do you have the proper skill/knowledge/tools to be hanging speakers where if they fall they could kill somebody?

Part of the whole "contractor thing" is to support the customer after the sale.  If you are not willing to do that-you need to make the customer aware of this-because they are probably expecting it.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Lee Douglas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 505
  • 47.662615, -116.756954
Re: My first church install - suggestions are welcome...
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2014, 10:19:51 am »


I do not live close, am not a part of the congregation etc and do not want to be supporting this install "permanently".

Your comments are very welcome!

Aside from the fact I don't think your design is right for this application, why would you install something you don't want to support?  If you're trying help them out, steer them towards a bonded and insured business that can be responsive in a timely manner.  Churches, due to turn over and non-professional volunteers who think it would fun twist any every knob once a day, need permanent support.  And often. As a business, I would be selling support contract with this install.
Logged
This space for rent

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2209
  • Marietta, GA
Re: My first church install - suggestions are welcome...
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2014, 11:16:11 am »

My response is going to start with nothing to do with the gear or system and is more about your understanding and experience with professional installations.  From addresssing the required infrastructure to making the installation code compliant to having proper credentials to be flying anything to providing system documentation and post-installation support, do you have the related experience and capabilities to properly address a professional install?
 
For example, you talk about speaker and mixer locations but how do you plan to get the related cabling between them and might conduit or riser/plenum rated cable be required?  Where would the amplifiers be located and is there sufficient existing power where you need it or might additional power be required and who is handling that?  What is your experience and qualifications relating to rigging and flying?  Do you have experience tuning systems and the skills and equipment to provide that service?  Are you able to provide appropriate system documentation such as system drawings, equipment and system manuals and any DSP or other programming?
 
There are also practical business issues.  Are you a licensed business and can you legally resell equipment (or are you addressing that in some other manner)?  Do you have appropriate insurance coverage?  Do you know if you need to be licensed and if so, are you appropriately licensed?
 
In relation to your one comment, if you install the system you probably will be associated with it for quite a time.  It is also common for professionally installed systems to come with a system warranty that covers the installation and overall system, typically for a one year period after the system installation is completed, in addition to the manufacturer's equipment warranties.
 
 
As far as the system, I did not hear the demo so I have to go by your evaluation.  However, just from the basic physics of sound a SLS920 on a stand on each side of the room at the front of the room would seem to result in a front to back variation in level that would be greater than is typically desired unless there is a significant contribution of indirect sound toward the rear, which would then seem to negatively impact intelligibility.  Did you make any coverage or intelligbility measurements when your portable system was used?
 
Are you essentially being hired to install your portable system or would you be hired to provide an effective sound system solution?  If the latter then since you are determining an appropriate solution for a specific application and space, the role of and effort invested in system design is one area where professional installs are typically much different than portable/rental/combat audio.  How have you verified that what you propose is an appropriate and effective solution?  Have you considered any other products or system options?  If you did use the concept proposed, have you determined the most effective flying height and aiming for the speakers?  In other words, has there been any actual system design performed?  Unless your role is simply to provide an installed version of your system then you probably want to invest some effort in system design and making sure you are offering an appropriate solution.
 
I think you are creating a potential nightmare for yourself and doing the church a disservice if you install a system that is difficult to operate.  Known gain before feedback issues combined with non-technical users seems to just be asking for ongoing problems as well as representing a less than professional result.  This also goes back to the system design, if the current system design has known concerns or problems then that suggests that you should perhaps be looking at other products and/or concepts that would be expected to provide acceptable results.  If you can't do that then it might be best for all if you helped the church find someone who can.
Logged

Alexander B Larsson

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 35
Re: My first church install - suggestions are welcome...
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2014, 01:43:49 pm »

Thanks for the replies, even if I am surprised byt the somewhat condescending attitude. I am no teenager volounteering to do this - far from. "Need a multi-cable down to the mixer - wow, did not think of that"...   ???
However, I still appreciate your effort invested in writing your comments!  :)


Anyway, I definitely need to clarify some things...  :)
Lets set the insurance, licence etc things aside. I run a business and I have all required approvals. This is not US, and things are very different from your conditions. No such things as "low voltage contractor licence" (?) etc here in Sweden. I have a sub-contractor doing all the wireing, the church's own contractors will install (genuine Community) fly-ware provided by me etc. Those parts are covered, even if the information was not in my post.

So let me re-phrease my question to focus on the technical and "peace of mind" aspects of things (very closely linked in this case).
It is clear to me that some nearby BOSE inställs (by a BOSE-licenced guy) deliver rahter poorly, in spite of very high costs.
As I said, the clients spontanously commented on how much better it sounded than the BOSE rigs in their other churches and how well the sound (both their own voices, acoustic guitar as well as live and studio recordings on CD).

I am however worried about a solution where you will need to actively "mix" the service and make sure the priest switches off the headset (or someone pulls the fader) as he/she enters the flight of stairs into the pulpit (where a permanent mike is used instead) etc, etc.
Their current "distributed clock radio speakers" visible in some shots do not require much active work, but also sounds very boxy and downright bad. They do not like it and they want to upgrade.

If not the SLS920:s, what would you suggest? The cost of the (used) 920s is about $800 each plus tax. Before you comment on that, new they cost over $3000 each plus tax here and are non-existing in the used market.
So what other new or used gear would you recommend?

I am not worried about support per se, but I do not want to "baby-sit" the rig for several Sundays, once installed.

Thank you!  ;D
Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: My first church install - suggestions are welcome...
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2014, 02:51:15 pm »

Alexander...

I have lived and worked in Sweden, Norway and Denmark and am quite aware of the differences and similarities involved in business between Scandinavia and the US.  When you characterize this as "my first church install" it raises a lot of questions.

Do you plan to continue with "church installs" after your first?

Have you done other installs outside of churches or is this your first install altogether?

If it is your install, it will be your responsibility for how it works and giving support to make sure it continues working.  This is plain old professional ethics and should not vary from country to country.  Either you are responsible or you are not.  If you are not going to be fully responsible for the long run, then I would suggest you reconsider.




Arbete inte svart.

Go softly and carefully on this, remembering that the easiest way to lose friends is to go into business with them.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 03:14:27 pm by dick rees »
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Alexander B Larsson

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 35
Re: My first church install - suggestions are welcome...
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2014, 05:12:31 pm »

Alexander...

I have lived and worked in Sweden, Norway and Denmark and am quite aware of the differences and similarities involved in business between Scandinavia and the US.  When you characterize this as "my first church install" it raises a lot of questions.

Do you plan to continue with "church installs" after your first?

Have you done other installs outside of churches or is this your first install altogether?

If it is your install, it will be your responsibility for how it works and giving support to make sure it continues working.  This is plain old professional ethics and should not vary from country to country.  Either you are responsible or you are not.  If you are not going to be fully responsible for the long run, then I would suggest you reconsider.




Arbete inte svart.

Go softly and carefully on this, remembering that the easiest way to lose friends is to go into business with them.

Thanks for the reply - much appreciated!
No problems - it is not "svart arbete" - there will be a formal contract etc.  :)

I have participated in other installations, such as a couple of cinemas and I have done enough PA to feel confident with any type of gear in consideration for this kind of install (digital signal processing, measuring, creating technical layouts and documents etc.)

Once again coming back to the fundamental of recommending not the only BEST gear for the money, but the best gear for the money and that THEY can operate.

Supporting the install is one thing (that I have no problem with), being forced to "baby-sit" something that might be over the head of the regular sound operator is something else.

Would a line array (other than BOSE) or other design lend itself better to these conditions?

And yes, I really try to REALLY think this through before I commit to anything...
(My wife said, that the very fact that I am unsure about this project is a warning in itself. I normally can and will predict what gear/setup/configurations etc to use, how it will work (and not work!) with rather good accuracy as soon as it involves to running PA or build speakers.)
And yes, the clients are very nice people that I know since a recording I made for them. Do not want to destroy that relation!
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8778
  • Atlanta GA
Re: My first church install - suggestions are welcome...
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2014, 05:15:46 pm »



If not the SLS920:s, what would you suggest? The cost of the (used) 920s is about $800 each plus tax. Before you comment on that, new they cost over $3000 each plus tax here and are non-existing in the used market.
So what other new or used gear would you recommend?


It can be quite a gamble installed used gear.  does the Church know this?  Who is going to be responsible if something fails?

It is not just parts-but labor also.  You say you don't want to be "involved" after the install.

If there is a failure on a Sunday, do you have a plan in place to get them up and working by the next Sunday?  THAT is VERY important to Churches.

You ask for other used gear recommendations.  That doesn't mean anything if there is no used gear available in your area.

You ask for recommendations.  There is no way anybody can provide REAL recommendations without a lot more information-such as measurements of the seating layout-mounting height limitations and so forth.

There is A LOT MORE to system design than simply guessing.

And if your budget is #1600 for speakers-that is VERY LITTLE to work with.

The ONLY thing I would suggest is new gear that has a warranty.  And that will be hard to do with that budget.

I know all of this sound harsh-but it is THE REALITY.  And sometimes that hurts.

You asked for opinions-and that is what you are getting.

If you are simply wanting somebody to say "Sure your idea is great", then good luck.

Just remember that the Church is going to call YOU if there is an issue.  You can't say "well the guys on the forum said it would be fine".

Sorry.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8778
  • Atlanta GA
Re: My first church install - suggestions are welcome...
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2014, 05:21:24 pm »




Would a line array (other than BOSE) or other design lend itself better to these conditions?

 I normally can and will predict what gear/setup/configurations etc to use, how it will work (and not work!) with rather good accuracy as soon as it involves to running PA or build speakers.)

So what do your predictions tell you about the coverage of the Community speakers?

What line arrays (for $1600) have you done a prediction for?

That would be the place to start.

Predictions is where I always start-to see what is needed for the room-pattern wise based on mounting height and width/depth of the room.

THEN we start to consider what something costs.

It doesn't matter if it is a good deal-if it does not do the job properly.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Tim Padrick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 908
  • Indianapolis
    • T.P. Audio
Re: My first church install - suggestions are welcome...
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2014, 02:44:48 am »

Looks like a good place for the Danley SBH-10.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.059 seconds with 23 queries.